If it [music] ends in abuse, I probably have experienced it one way or another. I felt like I was in this room [music] screaming at the top of my lungs and nobody was noticing. I realized like if God says it, he's going to do it. [music] I don't regret anything that's ever happened to me because it's led [music] me to where I'm at now. Quick disclaimer. In this episode, we will be talking about multiple forms of abuse, substance use. We talk about depression, anxiety, suicidal ideiation, and also in this episode, we talk about abortion. So, please listen responsibly. Welcome back to the Pivot or Die podcast, everyone. My name is Seth Kaser, and I'm your host. Today I am joined by my good friend Ally Anderson. >> Hi >> Ally. Thanks for being on the podcast. >> Thanks for having me. [laughter] >> Ally is um among a lot of things, she's a teacher, she's a a wife, she's a homeschool mom. Um and yeah, I'm just I'm so excited to to dive into your story um today. I mean, I've I've taught your kids for a really long time, right? Um, [clears throat] and and so I've heard bits and pieces throughout the years, but I think getting to to really hear what what you've been through and what what your journey has been and the the valleys and the mountain tops that we're going to get to to talk about today. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm I'm excited to to have you on. >> Me, too. [laughter] >> Um, well, I mean, let's let's dive into it. Can you kind of tell me a little bit of like um le let's start right now. I mean what what does your life look like right now? >> Um I think the easiest way to describe it is organized chaos. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Secured in Christ, rooted in Christ. Um and you know is as like where I'm at right now or who I am right now. It's >> whatever Christ wants me to be >> right now. So for today, Christ wants me to be present, of course, a mom, >> somebody who um is just influenced and driven by him. And I don't think I can put that in a box, you know? >> Yeah. >> And it's like, yes, I'm a homeschool mom. I'm um a teacher. I um am a sister. I'm a wife. I go to church. All the things. And we can get wrapped up in those things. But the simplicity of it all is I am a disciple of Christ. >> Come on. [laughter] I love it. Um well well let's let's uh let's take it back a little bit because that that definition that you just gave of who you are right now >> is probably very different from who you were. >> Oh very much. >> Right. >> Very much. >> Um and so can you kind of take me back? Let's let's go to childhood a little bit. I mean, what what was your what was your childhood like in in a little nutshell kind of thing? >> It was very chaotic. Um, my earliest memories are of my parents fighting >> physically. >> Um, there's a lot of drug use, uh, neglect, [clears throat] >> ultimately leading to, uh, my two sisters and I being removed from our house by CPS. >> Wow. >> Um, and placed under emergency guardianship. I don't forget what they call it. um which led to my grandparents um adopting us. >> Wow. >> Funny story. I didn't know I was adopted until I got married. It wasn't a surprise, but um >> until you got married >> because we have to change our our maiden name to our married name and they asked me who my birth parents were >> and it was my grandparents and I was like, "Oh, so that like I didn't realize like the legality of it like that they took all the steps to actually go through adoption." >> Wow. >> And so now I have the privilege to say I've been adopted twice. >> Wow. >> So, and that's that's really cool. >> Yeah. I mean, how how old were you when when you guys were removed from the house? When you're talking about your earliest memories of your parents and everything, >> it was right before I went to kindergarten. So, I assume four or five years old. >> Really? And and do you do you remember those things? Is it kind of like fuzzy or is it >> really? It's really fuzzy, but it's funny because the influence of other people's words can kind of make it less fuzzy. And so I don't know what's like truth and you know I I don't remember there wasn't like this big deal made or you know anything like that. It was just we lived with our mom and dad one day and the next day we didn't and we weren't allowed to see them for for years and that was really hard on us. um you know and but also the things that we that I've seen at a very young age that a child should never see >> um definitely had already >> like made root into my like my being and who I identified as and who I thought I was and >> um and so you know and that's just kind of the thing that started >> um >> yeah so I mean you guys are are taken out of your house you move in with your grandparents. Was that like was that kind of an immediate thing or was that Yeah, it was. Okay. >> It was immed We spent a lot of time there anyway. My my mom had she was 21 22 with three kids. >> Oh wow. >> And so she had us really young. >> Yeah. >> Um she was a a teenager when she had me. >> Yeah. >> Um and so you know there's a lot that that that goes into that that I've had to work out um with God. you know, it's >> um >> but yeah, it's it wasn't like this big horrible like it sounds like it's horrible. It is horrible. >> It's horrible for anyone. I can't imagine as a mother having your three kids taken from you. >> Yeah. >> You know, regardless if it was >> due to your own doing or not, >> but um >> that's just kind of what started my whole viewpoint on this world was being removed from my the only home that I know. >> Wow. to this other home that there's new rules, there's new like and then all the emotional stuff that goes into it. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so all three of you guys too, your siblings and everything too move in with your grandparents. >> And I mean um that was you're now starting into kindergarten. You're now living with your grandparents. >> Um from there, I mean, you're talking about these things taking root. What What was the rest of childhood like? um a lot of rebellion a lot. So I I everything was kind of smooth sailing for the most part. I mean there was little things here and there um until probably about high school. >> Um you know it's my grandparents um I love them to death. My my grandmother has shaped me helped shape me into the woman that I am today. >> Um however they didn't know you know affection and love and encouragement and it was a very traditional Mexican household. M >> where we do we do the work and we better do the work or you know better you know it's things are going to happen. Um and I there's no doubt in my mind that that house was filled with love though. It's I mean the ultimate sacrifice to give up your entire retirement to take care of children that aren't yours, you know, and then call them yours. >> Yeah. >> Um but I think in high school with this there was a lot of strict rules in our house. M >> um and I was looking for I was so empty like in hindsight I was just empty looking for anything >> to fill that emptiness and of course as a 15year-old girl you know >> what's the first thing we go to boys >> you know and um throughout the years I knew that I was sad I knew that I had this crippling anxiety um and I this little bit of attention that I was getting just it felt really good. It felt really new. >> Um and so it it led to a lot of >> u I always say if it ends in abuse, I probably have experienced it one way or another. >> Uh and so it's led down to some >> poor choices on my part. >> Yeah. >> That has caused caused some very painful things to happen. Undeserved, but at the same time, I kind of I see my part, you know. >> Yeah. Um, and so I think it the depression got so bad I had my first uh suicide attempt at age was I 15? I think I was 15. >> Wow. >> Um, I had gotten pregnant. >> Um, first time I ever had sex I'd gotten pregnant and I told my grandparents. Um, next day I I miscarried and uh, they they were kicking me out. I wasn't allowed to be there anymore. >> I was going to move in with my mom. They were in Houston. My mom was in Dallas. Now, I lived in this house my entire life. It was a really big deal. >> Yeah. >> And so I I took a huge like Costco size bottle of of Tylenol and was like, "That's it." And as I took like the last handful, my sister walked into the room. And so that's when I had to go to the hospital and all the things. Um, and then that's when everyone realized, wow, there's really a problem here, you know. I felt like I was in this room screaming at the top of my lungs and nobody was noticing, >> you know, and you know, and I grew up Catholic and so I I knew of Jesus. I knew of God. I I had a hard time with like confession and things like that. It felt very violating to me. >> Yeah. >> Um like I felt like it was something that should be spoken to me and God myself without knowing who God really is, you Yeah. >> Um [clears throat] so uh after um a while in ICU um that's when the therapies and the medications and everything started and >> I went down the therapy world route which is very enticing. >> Yeah. >> Very there's a lot of head knowledge, a lot of science, a lot of uh different things in that realm. Um and for 21 years I stayed there. stayed in that realm of I've had multiple attempts, multiple >> hospitalizations. Um, >> so so 21 years, you're you're 15. Um, you get pregnant, you miscarry, >> you're in this really dark place, feeling like you're screaming in a room and nobody's listening, >> right? And um you have this suicide attempt and from there you start on the therapies, you start on the medications and you you're saying you stay there in that world of therapy and medication and and and these things trying to um to deal with depression in that way >> for 21 years, >> right? >> Um and you said that there were there were other attempts within that whole thing. there. And when I was 16, um I was sexually assaulted by a boyfriend >> and so I had and I actually had gotten pregnant from from that as well. Um >> and that led me down an even darker >> um road. So it's it's a lot to put into words. My daughter has this thing where she calls it's the land of no words. Uh, really? [laughter] >> Yeah. And so it's kind of the land of no words, but it's not in like um, >> you know, it it's like I guess I should pref face this whole conversation with, you know, I don't regret anything that's ever happened to me because it's led me to where I'm at now because the security that I have now >> does not surpass like anything that or it does surpass anything and everything that I've gone through. is that that security in Christ, that knowledge of knowing that every suffering that I've ever suffered is not going to compare at all to the glory that I'll see in Christ. >> And so being able to sit here and just and say this, you know, say all these things without the emotion of when it happened, >> Yeah. >> is a total testimony of who Christ is and the redemption that he brings. >> Wow. I mean, I think that it is it is kind of just a um something I want to hit on a little bit because um for for somebody that might be listening too, that might be in um in that that dark place that you were in too, feeling like you're screaming and nobody's nobody's hearing you, nobody's listening. um to hear what you've gone through and then to hear you say now I don't regret anything that I've gone through is uh um I mean how do you how did you get there cuz that that I mean from I I'm even thinking back to like you in these moments hearing you say this now would be like it'd just be like a disconnect >> and so where was the where was the connection? What was that [clears throat] bridge kind of thing? You're saying you've been in in this whole therapy world 20 21 years. What shifted at that 21 year mark that you're talking about? >> The word of God. The word of God changes every perspective. it. Sorry. [cough and clears throat] Um, going into like knowing all these therapy worlds, there there is some truth in it, >> but I want to be really careful with saying the truth of therapy compared to the truth of God. >> Um, you know, when I first came to Christ, I I didn't know how to think. I didn't know how to I didn't even know how to walk. Um, and I was I I was very addicted to alcohol when I first came to Christ. >> Um, and I knew Galatians 5, I would not inherit the kingdom of God. >> And then uh Hebrews 4:12, that the word of God is sharper than a double-edged sword. And at the end of that, that it judges the thoughts and the intentions of the heart. And then even the next verse that every creature must give an account like no no creature is naked before God. And that scared me. And I I wasn't sure why that scared me. Um and so I started reading the word. >> Yeah. >> And I read Philippians to think on the true and the noble, the praiseworthy things. And I'm like, well, how do I do that when I've like all I can think about are the bad, you know? >> And it's like you have to capture every thought, take it captive, and bring it to obedience of Christ. So what I literally did is if I had a thought, I wrote it in a journal and I checked it against the word. Is this true? Is this noble? Is this praiseworthy? Is this, you know, all the things that Philippians 4 talks about? Um, and if it wasn't, I find the antidote and I memorize that verse, commit that verse to script to memory. >> When you say the antidote, what what do you mean by that? >> So let's say my thought is um I'm so ugly. I'm so stupid. I don't even know why I'm here. >> We know that's not a truthful thought. You know, >> it might be an emotional thought. Um, but it's not a truthful thought. And so, I would memorize. No, God's word says I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. >> So, I'm going to choose to believe that. The therapy world calls that CBT, >> cognitive behavior therapy, where you take a negative thought, replace it with a positive thought, and you just hope for the best. Um, but when I committed these scriptures to memory, >> it gave me a power that I didn't possess myself. >> You know, it's like we put these these words in our heart. We we memorize these words so we don't sin against God. >> But a lot of times as Christians, I think that we forget that our thought life can be sinful. M >> you know and if we don't have that counter that antidote to that sinful thought it will literally produce new brain um >> neuropathies and everything. >> That's the purpose of it and that's the beauty of God. It's like whatever isn't existing or is dead he brings back to life. >> And so I it was a fight. It was a real fight. I mean I had >> it was down to the point where my husband took FMLA. That's so I could get into the word >> and really learn how to think. And within a year of studying God's word and and believing his promises, I was healed of all the off of medications, off of everything. >> And so it's God's word is is a is a I don't want to call it a tool. It is >> it is the nukebomb of like bad thinking. like you you can't argue with God's word, you know? It's like you just have to be determined in your heart, in your mind, like God said it, I'm going to believe it. >> You know, it's like God, you said I don't have to worry about what I'm going to say. So, since you say that, I'm going to trust you're going to give me the words. >> You know, just little prayers like that. Your word says this, because your word says this, >> I'm going to trust you're going to do it. >> I mean, okay, I this is like a genuine question from from me in my life is [clears throat] these things. It's like sometimes um sometimes within the church when um we are given a a scripture or it's almost like you know we're going through something hard and like somebody just brings up this scripture that's kind of like hey don't worry about anything you know and it it's kind of like >> sometimes we we know these scriptures in our in our heads well [clears throat] you know it's like we yeah I've heard that before kind of thing be anxious for nothing. But then everything it's like but but how did you you're talking about again I love that quote is that the the word of God is a nuke bomb for negative thoughts. It's [laughter] amazing. But I mean, how how do you feel like we get the word to go from just head knowledge in our like it, you know, I I know these words intellectually versus like they're actually being used as weapons against the negative thoughts or against the the depression that I might be feeling. >> Test it. It's it really is that simple. Test it. Okay. God says that be anxious for nothing but in everything with thanksgiving. Then what? Present your supplications. Right. >> And so >> can you define the word supplications real quick? >> Supplication is like the desires of your heart. The the >> and then that's that's a whole other subject too because your desires need to align with God's desires and >> you know and and the people who who give those verses of like be anxious for nothing. and but they've never experienced anxiety in their life. Might have a hard time understanding understandably um what it's like to be, you know, have struggle with anxiety. I still struggle with it. I'm sure if you ask my family, they would be like, "Oh, what mom's talking about right now, man, we would like to see her practice that a little bit more." you know, I know that about myself, you know, and >> you know, and I know that I have hypocritical tendencies, and I think we all do as Christians that we need to be aware of. >> Um, but >> I I think the biggest thing when we get those verses is number one, understand that it's coming from a place from love. Understand and trust that it's coming from a place of love >> from those people that are saying these verses. Yeah. >> It's a waste of time to speculate anyone's intentions with anything. Just assume they're coming from a good place. It's >> the true and noble, right? >> Um but also um just testing it. Just say, "Okay, Lord, you said this. >> I I'm going to believe it and I'm having a hard time believing it. Will you help my unbelief?" >> You know, and and he's come through every single time. Now, the times where I feel like it's delayed, it's because of me. M >> um but as far as like memorizing like having those scriptures I don't want to say thrown at you but it kind of feels that way like an ending to a conversation you know >> um >> it's take it to heart >> that might be God speaking to you >> you know and it's so simple and we don't have to complicate it all just test it take it to heart God will pass the test every time it's >> I mean I'm 12 years in And I'm still testing. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> And he passes every single time. >> Yeah. But so I mean, okay, if we we go back a little bit cuz you're talking about being um you know, in this this therapy medication world for for 21 years, dealing with all this kind of stuff. But then in the midst of that, um you have you got married. >> Yes. and um dealing with um you know alcohol use and and and and these different things. I mean take me take me back there a little bit if if we can just to to talk about what that was like before because I mean that's that's a radical transformation right that you're talking about. And so did that happen like this or what was that um what was that kind of take me back a little bit. >> It was a little bit of both. Um, so I got invited to a Bible study. Um, I was I was selling like candles at the time. >> Okay. >> And this lady was like, "Hey, >> it's a great networking opportunity." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> This lady named Evie was being sent to Kentucky >> or Tennessee. I think it was Kentucky. >> Um, and they were doing like a mission sendoff thing and they wanted to do a fundraiser and I'm like, "Sure." All these women walk into the room and they're so happy and it made me sick >> cuz I'm like, "Oh, fake women. Fake women." Like, they're just pretending. Like, I couldn't I could not like fathom that women could actually be this happy. Like, I didn't think that was real. >> Were you Were you married at this point? >> Yes, I was married. My kids were two and four, maybe. They were young, preschool age. >> Um, and they invited me to Bible study like, "We'll pay for you. We're in the We're going to start in the book of Hebrews." And I'm like I was like that sounds so lame like you know. >> Um >> had you at that point I mean you you were raised Catholic. Had that been something like God in your life the the Bible or anything? Was that a part of your life at all? >> It was um when I was younger. Okay. >> You know I always say my grandmother was the most Christian Catholic you'll ever meet. Whenever my friends came over she would open up her Bible. I have a friend now who's like I'm go I go to church because you're grandma. >> Yeah. you know, so she always church was like we were there every Sunday. We had our own spot like confession every Saturday. I was an altar server. [laughter] >> That's so so I I had this understanding of of like of who God is. You know, I've always believed in God always. Jesus is >> that's the check the box I checked off always. >> Um and so they invited me to the Bible study and they were like, "There's child care." And I'm like, "Oh, >> you'll take my kids." [laughter] >> I am there. >> Yeah. >> Um, and we start in the book of Hebrews. And once I got to Hebrews chapter 4, it was verse 4:12. The word of God is sharper than a double-edged sword. Um, that's kind of what opened my eyes. Like, >> I I knew this, but I didn't know it. Like, I didn't live it. And so that kind of got me started of like looking at my life >> and not necessarily looking at it in a way of like I want to please God, but looking at a way like I know that my life is not pleasing God. >> And so I would say things like I would do my Bible study while drinking. Um I would I would say things like Jesus drank wine like you know and justify [clears throat] my sin. >> Skip over verses about drunkenness. And I I just I couldn't resist it after reading Galatians 5. Um that drunkenness was one of those sins that would cause me to not inherit the kingdom of God. >> And that's >> what what do you mean by that? Not inherit the kingdom of God. Um, >> just for those that might not be familiar with with these Christian terms, >> you know, in the in in to not inherit the kingdom of God would be you disqualifying yourself from like like let's say your dad's a millionaire, you know, and for you to get this inheritance, you have to be a doctor. >> And I'm not going to be a doctor. I don't want to be a doctor. Well, you've lost your inheritance. You disqualified yourself from the inheritance. M >> it's a really bad analogy. >> Yeah. >> Um but it is one of the sins that separates us would separate me from God. >> Um and so there's a whole list in Galatians 5 of the sins that will separate a person from God and drunkenness was one of them. >> Wow. >> Um and so that was the day I began to fear God. And you know a lot of a lot of places will say that to fear God is to have some sort of reverence for God to have >> but I I really think it means literal fear >> like I I am afraid of God's judgment like I am terrified of God's judgment. I don't want God's judgment >> you know and you know and plus someone like me being raised in a strict household I had to change my frame of thinking of like I have to be this good little girl. I have to do all these [clears throat] things. It's like, "No, all I have to do is believe." >> Believe that God is who he says he is. That Jesus is is is who the way, the truth, and the life, everything else will fall into place. everything else. >> Because I think for for a lot of those that are outside of the church or um aren't aren't used to uh being around Christianity or anything like that, um Christianity can be perceived as a a a long list of rules that I need to to do. >> Um and if I don't do them, then God's going to send me to hell. That that is the the nutshell of what Christianity can look like from the outside, >> right? But you're saying that it's not it's not this list of roles that that belief in who Jesus is is what we're called to and everything else falls into place after that. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, and and God has given me like I I don't I want to be very careful. I'm not comparing man to God at all. >> Um my mother remarried um and my grandfather, he's my stepgrandfather. My son actually carries their his middle name is their last name. Okay. >> Um, and we never had grandparents because my grandparents adopted us. So, we never had real grandparents. You know, the $5 cards and that you get for every like bank holiday. >> Um, >> and he loves us in a way that like demands respect that he doesn't demand respect. He's never raised his voice. I've seen him mad once and it was at a pizza man when I was in like second grade [laughter] >> and he said, "You're very very late, sir." And that was like the gist of his anger. Um, but the way that he loved loves us >> makes me not want to disappoint him, >> makes me want to honor him, makes me want to make him proud, you know. And not that God needs anyone making him proud, but it's just a type of love >> where you just you don't want to disappoint your father. Yeah. >> You know, and you're willing to do the things that he's asking you to do. If my grandfather told me, um, go do the dishes when I was little, I'd be like, "Yes, sir. I got you." You know, and I would be happy and I would do it with a joyful heart. >> Yeah. >> You know, because of the way that he loves us, >> you know, and and that's that's kind of how I explain it to other people who because Christians struggle with this, too. You know, [clears throat] >> it's it's not that we have this list of things to do. is that our father's love is so great that he sent his only son to die a criminal's death on my behalf to to take the the judgment and wrath off of me so I can be reconciled with God. >> And just like being justified like that makes me want to serve God and makes me want to do the things that >> that the Bible tells me to do. >> Yeah. >> You know, slow to anger. I'm really bad at that. But >> slow to anger, keeping peace with all men as much as as it depends on myself. Um, you know, being anxious for nothing, you know, it's, you know, and that's that's just kind of how I explain it. It's like the love is so great, you want to do it. >> Yeah. And so, I mean, you're you're in this this spot. You have a couple young kids. You're um, you know, you're you're drinking pretty heavily at that point. um you sit down, you read Galatians, and you get to this part where it says you're not going to inherit the kingdom of God. You said at that point, that day is when you started to fear the judgment of God. >> And I mean, was that like a okay, now I'm going to turn around. I'm going to stop drinking. I'm going to do all these kind of things. And like, was it kind of a transformative moment when when you read that or was it I mean, what how did that play out? So, actually that week that I read the the verse, I was still drinking and I was I did start to fear the Lord. >> Um, and my husband came home and it was like 5:00 and I was already drunk like halfway there. Um, and he's like, "Something's got to change or we're gone. I'm taking the kids." >> And I didn't know what to do. you know, and at the same time, side note, that's when I started to see maybe my kids are I'm idolizing my kids. [gasps] [laughter] >> I'm sorry. That's so funny. Um, okay. You're saying you you're starting to idolize your kids. >> Yeah, but that's a whole other And so, at the time, we had this trailer. Um, and I went out into the trailer and I'm like crying and I'm crying out to God and I'm like, I don't know what to do. like I I can't quit drinking by myself. Like, >> you know, in hindsight, yes, you can. But in the moment, I didn't think that was something I could do on my and I couldn't do it on my own. I needed the Lord. >> Um, and so that night, I I I fantasized about ending my life. >> Um, this was April 28th, 2015. >> And, uh, I was like, that's not an option. I can't do My uncle had committed suicide. I saw what it did to the family and it was just not >> I'm sorry. >> Um and I went into the hospital and I always say I went in for depression and came out an alcoholic. And so I went through a a medical detox. Um and you know from there is is when I really start picked up my cross >> and and started following the Lord >> you know and it's such a beautiful journey it's such a painful journey but it's beautiful >> um to just say no to sin just say no the reward at the end is so great like when I was in it I I thought for sure I'd never have fun again >> I thought for sure that my life was over, that I'm just going to be this lady who sits on the couch and reads her Bible all the time, >> which that's not bad either, honestly. [laughter] >> But um you know, and and it's not just this one moment cuz sanctification >> is to the day you see Christ, >> you know, and there's this transformation that's constantly go growing. Um and all you need is belief. That's it. belief in a in a willing heart. >> And I mean that even that starts a belief. >> Yeah. And I mean so so so you're saying 2015 um you know your husband says, "Hey, something's got to change >> or you know that that this isn't a a cohesive environment for our kids to to be living in." And um you know, you you start fantasizing about ending your life at at that point in in 2015. And you said that you you went into the hospital at that point. >> Mhm. I check I went to the ER. >> Okay. >> Um and then from there I went to med through medical detox and then I went through a like 14-day outpatient program. >> And then >> was it medical detox from from alcohol at that point? Okay. >> Yeah. >> And then that's when AA started. >> Um and so that's a lot in in that realm too. >> Yeah. Um, you know, it's I don't want to bash it, but because it did lead me to where I am now, >> but it's because of God >> where that led me to where I am now. >> Yeah. >> I think that that um AA and and 12step programs um can be really really really um really amazing. And I think that what what those programs do well is the whole thing the whole definition of addiction, right? Meaning that in my own power, >> right? >> I can't just stop this. I can't just will to stop doing this of my own strength, >> right? >> Um but instead, I need to surrender to a higher power. and the whole concept of of not like because what we try to do is like white knuckle everything and just be like I'm just going to do it. >> But um you know AA and the Bible both talk less about trying and more about surrendering >> right >> and so through through AA at that point you start um I mean do you start attending meetings? >> I'm yeah I attend meetings um you know and they're all beneficial. >> Yeah. you know, as as long as your foundation is Christ, >> um, I lasted a year. I got I went to get my year chip and that was it because I felt I was more secure. what it came down to. And I'm very careful about sharing this kind of advice, but this is more for the more seasoned, you know, because the the issue, the biggest issue that I have with AA outside of >> Christian doctrine and theology >> is um you stay an alcoholic. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. >> Um and I just I there's a new girl um in our group that she's like, I just I'm getting my three-year chip. I'm like, oh, cool. I'll go with you to your meeting. She's brand spanking new believer. >> This is current day. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Um and she said uh and and I was like, wait, is this a closed meeting? And for AA, a closed meeting means you you have to be an alcoholic to go. You have to go. You go around the room. I would say, hi, I'm Ally, you know, 12 years sober. Um alcoholic, 12 years sober. >> Mhm. >> I had I for the first time ever, I had conviction about saying that. M >> I I mean I've had to say that in a really long time, >> but because I felt like I I was lying. I was lying because I'm a new creation. >> I'm no longer an alcoholic. >> You know, it's if if I wanted to partake in a champagne toast or I have self-control, the fruit of self-control to limit me on that, to give me the self-control. >> Do I want to tempt it? No. Because God has also given me the nose. And whenever I smell alcohol, I get really nauseous. >> So, I'm just gonna >> Yeah. >> I don't want it, you know. >> Um, >> praise God for the nose. >> Yeah. Praise [laughter] God for the nose. >> Um, [clears throat] so it it's I I couldn't go to this meeting and say that I was an alcoholic because >> really I wanted to go to the meeting and stand up. I used to be an alcoholic because of Jesus Christ. I am a new creation and no longer >> A, B, or C. It's not just alcoholic, you know. It's whatever your sin is. >> Yeah. >> Um and so it's the the way that God gave that's that was the radical change was I woke up one day and it just made me nauseous. It just >> really >> Yeah. Like I would pray to God for God like don't even let me get drunk. Like I >> I mean those are like but he gave me that nose to whenever I smell it that's it. >> I don't want it. >> Yeah. and that so so you're within the program [cough] for for a year. Um I'm assuming going through the steps at that point too and everything. Um and um you you get your one-year chip or did you not go get it? >> I get I got my oneear chip. >> So you you got your one-year chip and then at that point you're saying I I felt stable >> to to a certain degree >> um to Yeah. to as far as the temptation for alcohol. Yeah. God completely removed that. Um, there was a lot of other things I had to work on like all the my traumas. I I really hate that word trauma. I It's a valid word. It's an important word, but I feel like it's used >> to justify sin. >> I'm doing this because of all my trauma. I'm yelling at you because of all my trauma. Like that's >> it's not a it's not >> in the eyes of God a reason, you know? Mhm. >> Um, but I I took this class that was offered at the church I was going to at the time, uh, Woman at the Well, >> and this class, it was kind of like the fight club of church, okay? >> You know, it's like you don't talk about Woman at the Well, you don't talk about who's in Woman at the Well, you sign a contract to say you're not going to talk about anything that's spoken about in those four walls. Mhm. >> And that made me really comfortable because I've lived a life of where I've been violated multiple times. >> Um, and it felt like a place that I could really just like rip my hair out and scream and people will like not not listen in an enabling way, but listen and like and in those rooms, these women, the women that were leading it would tell me the hard things. Mhm. >> They would tell me to sit down and be quiet. They would s tell me like, "Did you read your Bible? Did you pray?" You know, you need to change that I can't to I won't, you know, and they would say the really hard things that I think in Christian circles, we try to soften things, >> you know, but I mean, when you read God's word, it's it's >> it's so confrontational, you know, it could with the reader, you have to confront yourself when you read God's word. And you know, and I think that was like not sugarcoating it and just trusting what they're telling me is out of love. >> And then they're more seasoned, more mature than I am. I'm just going to imitate what they're doing and see if it works. I tested it. >> And once that class was was done, I I my brain was completely rewired. Like I I I could not think the old way. >> I had to think the new way because that's all I knew now. old passed away. Behold, the new has come. >> Wow. I mean, that I I think that in in my own life, too. Um I think real quick, I do just want to to speak to this real quick is that um I I do agree with you that that trauma can be um can be almost like a a buzzword >> recently. Mhm. >> Um >> but I do think that um again if I was to give like a a scientific definition of trauma, which I I just got to speak to this um this group of interns with a a group that's going up to Royal Family Kids Camp, which is like a foster care camp kind of thing. >> And um I I asked everybody, hey, like what um what what do you think trauma is? Right? because when we're working with kids in the foster care system or kids that have gone through really hard things, I think that that word is an important one to know um because I do think it does give a reason to um for those that haven't done the work and for those that haven't um [clears throat] healed from or haven't had space to uh to be totally honest like you're talking about. Um, you know, trauma is uh things that you have gone through in the past that um have wired your brain to now perceive um situations that aren't dangerous as situations that are dangerous. And so when there's a child that's gone through trauma and they're in a classroom and the teacher says, "Hey, stop that." And that teacher might not might not mean to be that they're not coming across as dangerous, but that child might perceive that as dangerous. Right. So, I do think that trauma is a >> [snorts] >> um an important thing, but but like you said, um you know, I I think that one of the best ways ever to um begin to heal from the trauma that we've gone through is like having having a place where we can be >> totally honest. >> Yeah. And like you said, ripping my hair out and screaming and like that people aren't looking at me and like like I'm, you know, I don't know. I think that people who allow you to have a space to do that >> and then in love provide correction, >> right? >> Um there there's something called TBRI, um which is a a a way it's a philosophy of of helping kids heal from the trauma that they've gone through. Um, it's called trustbased relational intervention. That's the whole concept of that when you've gone through trauma, you can't you can't trust >> somebody. Um, can't trust an adult, right? >> Um, and trustbased relational intervention, there's three parts of it, >> which is number one, connection. Mhm. >> that if if there's somebody that's willing to connect with you and really to hear you out and to listen. And then um it's it's connection and then empowerment which is like hey you can do this and I believe in you. >> Yeah. And then the third one which when I first heard this I thought it was really interesting but the third one is correction. And that process connection empowerment and then correction. Those three concepts um it's something that that I've now incorporated into my teaching and and like of of my students and everything too. But um I think that that sounds like exactly what happened at this group. >> Yeah. And you know, and not to contradict myself, I still struggle with those areas of of trauma. M >> correction >> is very hard for me >> because whenever I received correction as a kid it wasn't >> correction in love >> you know and I even with my own kids the way I correct I see those same mistakes still coming out >> you know >> and you know there's times you know it's um you know I experienced some very deep church hurt >> that brought up a lot of the same trauma responses that >> I've known in the past that I didn't even know was there. Um, and so things can still bring it up. >> Yeah. >> But it's that's the part of you have to practice capturing those thoughts so they don't spiral out of control into a big reaction. >> When you talk about church hurt, what what do you what do you mean by that by for somebody that >> might not know that word? >> Um, church hurt is, you know, you kind of expect family members to hurt you. you know, siblings get in fights, your parents might talk down to you or, you know, think relationship wise, >> there's certain hurts. Church hurt, I feel like, is a little bit different because you go to church to not hurt. >> You go to church to heal. It's like a hospital. M >> um and so whenever I don't know like somebody in church can gossip about you or you find something out that they said about you or they don't say hi to you or >> um or maybe leadership makes what you think is not great decisions >> um that ultimately leads to you leaving the church. >> Um that's a kind of hurt that I've never experienced before. >> Yeah. And it was very similar to the feelings of being removed by CPS and all the >> me feeling unwanted and >> you know not that they produced that feeling. It was just kind of a feeling that that it came up like >> this I wanted to run away. I wanted to hide. I wanted to >> um you know and it just >> it shook my faith is what it did. M. So you I mean you're you're in is this is this the the same church where that Bible study had had happened? Okay. So you're you're in this church. This Bible study's going on. >> You go through this woman at the well >> concept and and getting to I I mean I think honestly it's it's like finding if if you are somebody that has gone through trauma or you're you're having these trauma responses, there's deep wounds that you have. finding a space like the one that you just talked about at Woman at the Well, where there are people who will let you um express yourself >> and then will provide you correction and love, >> right? >> Is like, oh, it's it's amazing. So, if you're somebody that is listening and you're going through that, find find that group. I'm Yeah, really. Um, but I mean, you're you're at this church. How long are you are you there um before you then talk about um church heart? >> I was there maybe six or seven years ago like for six or seven years. So by this time I was leading Bible study. [laughter] >> We teach middle school. So >> um [clears throat] I was leading Bible study. I actually started help I was co-leading woman at the well as well. Um, we had a life group. I was on staff for Kids Men. >> M. >> Um, and you know, it's family members were getting fired >> and I didn't know why. And I felt really young in my walk still >> and I felt like this is something we don't talk about. this is something like and I was like no these like I felt like a kid in the middle of a divorce >> not knowing what was going on not knowing who was coming who was going like there was no communication um and when I asked questions I I didn't get any answers >> you know I didn't see anyone being disqualified from their um positions um there was no reasoning if anyone was disqualified. >> Um, you know, and it was kind of like a none of your business >> and that really hurt me because I I love these people like my family >> and um and I wasn't directly involved with anything. It it in the grand scheme of things, it isn't any of my business. Um, but not getting the answer of of why my family is being asked to leave, >> it really hurt me. >> It it hurt a lot. And >> I I just had a really hard time even when when my ladies came to ask me what was going on and not having answers >> and then not being met with when I wanted to meet and see if I could get some answers. Um, it just it really shook my faith because I'm like, this is the place where I go to not get hurt. >> Yeah. >> And I see the people that I love getting hurt very deep >> in a way that makes me cry. >> Yeah. >> And weep. >> Um, and so, >> um, you know, and I think a lot of people have experienced some sort of church hurt where >> maybe they didn't feel included, maybe they didn't feel whatever it might be. Um, and I think it's caused a lot of people to just leave church in general to to step away from Jesus. Like they put that onto Christ. >> Yeah. >> And and that's where I was at. I was just like, >> do I still want to do this church thing? Do I still like But at the same time, I knew that was a ridiculous question, >> you know, and um ultimately we did end up leaving. We left peacefully. Um, and we gave our reasons why we were leaving. And, >> you know, thank God for it because, you know, I we we went to this new church. It's it's not new to us anymore, but >> um, it was a year of like, you know, after a big pruning >> and and with plants. >> Yeah. >> You know, you you have to wait for growth. >> Mhm. >> You know, you have to wait for growth to come for fruit to be produced again. Not to say that we won't produce fruit in those dry seasons, but um it it shook my faith in a way that I had to test it again, >> you know, >> of am I [clears throat] going to let my emotions >> and my responses rule me or am I going to let Christ rule me? I think that it's the whole the whole concept of even this this podcast the saying pivot or die >> is it's like genuinely there are moments in life where it feels like there is a decision >> that we have to make >> right >> between there is a moment of adversity or there is a a big obstacle kind of thing um a big change that happens and we have two options which is either like one I can curl up on the on the floor in a little ball and I can wait to die >> or I can pivot and I can figure this thing out and I can I can keep moving forward. >> Yeah. You know, and even in that moment I we pivot and this was peak COVID time too. >> Okay. Um, and we pivoted, you know, and I was reluctant about it. I mean, this was my home. Like, >> you know, this is where my kids had all their friends. Our homeschool community was here. >> Um, like this was this was our community. And to leave it >> was not something I took that we took lightly. You know, we we prayed about it. We um ultimately what was funny at the time we were in Genesis >> and I just kept thinking of of of Abraham well Abram at the time where God's like get up and move. Let's go. >> You know and and that made it a little bit easier. And I think I honestly the temptation was to look at my position. I I had a good position you know I was known. I was seen. I was teaching. um and to let that go >> and because what is my position in Christ? >> We're all the same. We're all equal to him, you know, there's no partiality. >> Um and and just trusting that God will guide us through the way, you know, and then >> those of us who did get hurt, leaning on each other and being there, you know, it it's a process to get through it. It's, you know, it's it's one of those things that we don't talk about in church. You know, it's like >> you come to Christ, you're healed. And that's what about that time in between that that it's it's like you're you talk about white knuckling. I call it bloody knuckles. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's you have to fight. It's it's a fight to capture those thoughts. It has nothing to do with anyone else but you and God, regardless of what the hurt is, what the trauma is, >> to capture that thought >> and bring it to obedience. >> The church has its problems. I mean, it's written in the Bible. That shouldn't be a surprise to us. >> Yeah. >> You know, and this isn't anything new. >> And um I'm so grateful um for the church I was at before. It's a church I got saved at. It's a church that >> taught me how to align my life with Christ. There's amazing people that still go there. >> Um uh but it's church hurt is real and it's >> I I think we should talk about it a little bit more. We don't need to talk about the the things that happened, but what are we doing to get through it? >> Yeah. You know, >> I think it's it's an interesting thing that it's every hero in the Bible that we read about, it's like all of these guys, you know, um God does crazy things through them and then they fail. >> Mhm. >> And then there's sin. [clears throat] And um I I think that it it's it's one of the things for me when I think about the Bible that that helps me to um to realize that it's not just like some fairy tale. >> Cuz it's like you read about all of these fairy tales and these legends and lore from all of these other religions and it's like >> Joan the will. It's it's like uh you know these these other books will will kind of like idolize these heroes and be like look they're so perfect. >> The Bible does the opposite. That's like hey even God says even the people that I use are flawed. >> Yeah. And um then it comes to the church and when hurt happens, when church splits happen, when leaders let us down, when leaders fall into sin, when all these things happen, we we get surprised by it. And it's like, man, if we let humans represent to us who God is, then yeah, we should all leave the church. >> Mhm. >> If if we do that, we should all leave the church because it's always going to let us down. But um if we realize that we are all flawed humans that are all trying to figure this thing out, even pastors and even um those in leadership. Um now the Bible does say that leaders will be judged with a stricter judgment and that there is a lot more um responsibility on their shoulders that uh when it talks about you know elders of a church it says that they are actually keeping watch over the souls of the people in their church which is a crazy responsibility >> and um that's not something to be taken lightly and it's it's also not something that then um if we're expecting church heart. We're like, well, I don't need anybody to keep watch over my soul. It's like, no, the the Bible does set up this structure that is something that's good. It is good to be in a church. >> Um, >> but if there is failing and if there is division and if there are things that happen that are super hurtful, um realizing that these are flawed people still >> and um giving grace in the midst of that. But it's it's even hearing about your story too, just seeing like like you said in in um if if it ends in abuse, I've I've been through [laughter] it. Um you know, I think that those same feelings come up in the middle of a a church split, in the middle of of >> church hurt. >> There was severing, you know, not everyone is generous with their assumptions, >> you know, and you know, and it's not just with church, it's with anything. I mean, I still struggle, you know, even with with my husband sometimes. My husband is >> probably the most patient man. >> I've he he won't say that about himself, [snorts] >> but he has been I have seen God's love through my husband like >> just so many times from like giving me the last bite of the appetizer. >> Yeah. to like I mean really really hard medical stuff, you know, >> and having to do things that in sickness and in health that no woman would want her husband to have to do for her. >> Yeah. >> You know, and um >> you know, just seeing his willingness and you know, it's he he def God definitely gave me a good husband. Um, but even through like my stuff, like this is stuff I've put my husband through and like it's really easy to fall on the guilt of that and like >> you know it's like oh well I should be nicer cuz I really put this guy through a lot which is actually kind of true but [laughter] um he's he's really been the steady you know alongside me in this journey um with Christ and and sometimes I fail to remember that because I get in my own I call it my Latin fire. [laughter] >> Um but you know just having that um consistency of a man who is going to love me no matter what. And I had to I had to believe that. It took a lot of years >> of working because >> I mean if I couldn't even trust God to love me, you know, it's like when I came to Christ when you know we I always say like we made I made this decision is no God God chose me. He picked me >> and you know >> and the whole time I'm reading the word and I'm like, you know, if you're this great God, if you're so great, why did you let all this stuff happen to me? Like why? Like I I was angry about it. I'm like, if you love me so much, what kind of love lets his daughter get raped? >> You know, what kind of love lets his daughter, you know, like has we have to go live with our grandparents now? What kind of love lets A, B, or C or D happen, right? And it's like once I understood that we're in a fallen world, once I understood I played a part, you know, I couldn't blame God for anything other than the goodness in my life. And it took years to get there. And even now, I still have to like sit down and be really intentional with it >> of when bad circumstances happen or when parenting is really hard or anything, I have to really like sit down and like, okay, I'm going to believe that verse in Romans that God will work all things out for good for those who are called according to his purpose. >> Yeah. >> You know, regardless of what it is. Like I mean, the evacuation we live we lived [laughter] >> county just happened. So we we lived, you know, we lived right by your parents. So we lived right on the edge of where that um that border was to be evacuated. I knew in my heart of hearts we'd be okay. I I knew we would. >> But I also have my teen kids. They're they're >> going to be 15 and 17. >> And we learned a lot during co about obeying governing authorities. >> And I'm very big on governing obeying governing authorities. Now I'm veteran. I am the first person to go practice my >> We didn't even [laughter] talk about that. That you you went into the military, right? >> That's a blur. [laughter] >> Um but I was like, "No." Like my husband is like, "This is going to be really expensive. We just dropped money for both kids to go to camp. It's summertime. I'm a teacher. We're not getting paid." >> Um and so I was like, "We have to obey governing authorities. What are we teaching the kids >> if we lean on our own understanding? I think we're going to be fine. Like I don't think anything's going to happen. But um and he's like, "Well, we can't afford this right now." Like if we do what God says that he's to do, if we do it, God's going to honor it. He's going to provide because his word says that. >> The next day, we we ended up um having to stay in a hotel. Um, and when we got back from uh the evacuation the next day, my husband got offered overtime the entire week. Covered the entire thing. >> He He got offered a what? >> Overtime. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, God turned that around real quick. I'm like, God said it. Like, it didn't even have to be a prayer. Like, God said it. It's going to happen. You know, it's >> it's and in that moment was kind of a pivotal moment for me because I realized like if God says it, he's going to do it. >> God said like God said he's going to make the sunrise. He's going to do it. >> He's going to put the stars in the sky. It's there. You know, if he says it, he will do it. And we have to be determined >> to believe that and trust that. It's amazing. Ally, what what would you um what would you say? I I love this this segment that we do in in Pivot or Die, but um talking about your story. I'm really appreciative of of the vulnerability and just the the honesty that you that you brought to this conversation today. Um, but to I if there's somebody that's out there that might be in the same place that that you were in and maybe has has experienced um an immense amount of abuse and depression and um might still be in that pit. >> Can you look at that camera and just talk to them for a minute? If you're in that pit, if you're in that pit of I can't get out. I'm in despair. I don't see a way out. Number one, there's always a way out. That's your those are your emotions lying to you. They It's a real emotion. It's It might feel true. Um secondly, my next encouragement is to get to to church. You you don't even need to open up a Bible yet. I mean, that's beneficial. But get to church. I mean, everyone knows a Christian. You you can see on on social media a Christian friend. Um, reach out to them. I guarantee you it will change your life. Um, and quite honestly, this is one of my passions. And if you're really in that pit of despair and you feel like nobody understands, and if there's anything that I said today that resonates with you, reach out. Seth has my number and I'm I'm more than happy to talk and and guide you, disciple you through this. Um, but there is light and that light, I mean, in hindsight, it doesn't compare to any of the suffering. None of it. And you just have to pick up your mat and walk. H >> Ally, thank you so much for sharing your story and for me >> being on this podcast. >> Um if you are in that place, um I I want you to know that we are here for you. Um there are resources that are uh going to be in the the description below. I think we're going to put a church directory in there, too, that if you're in a in a place where you need a church, um there's a link below for you to uh to find um a good church that you could uh could be at. And and like Alli said, there is hope. And so um yeah, thank you for listening, you guys. If you can um like and subscribe, it's super easy for you. It helps us out so much. Um, and uh, yeah, Ally, thanks. Thanks for being on. This has been the Pivot or Die podcast.
