coming to the understanding that drugs and alcohol wasn't my problem. That was my solution to my problem, whatever. But like, hunter, we can't this isn't we can't justify this. >> I didn't come to God looking for heaven. I came running away from hell. For the first time in my life, I admitted I was on the plane and I was like, I need to get sober >> and I need to be sober and I'm writing this in an email with you or to you because I don't want to waste a stamp on you. Good luck with your life. It was like somebody unzipped my head, took those thoughts out, and just zipped it back up. >> Wow. >> And there was nothing there. >> Hey everybody, I want to welcome you to this episode of the Pivot or Die Podcast. My name is Seth Quaser. I'm proud to host this show. And a couple weeks ago, me and and Kaden, who is the producer for this show, we were talking back and forth about a couple ideas and how we can improve the show and all those kind of things. And we had this idea for me to do almost like an intro to each of these episodes after I've had some time to process through them and tell you what I loved about these episodes and what you should stick around for. It's also a great opportunity for me to look at you and say, "Hey, 96% of you guys who are watching these are not subscribers. It's one button. If you're watching on if if you're listening on Spotify or something like that, too, it's one button to follow us." And that really helps us to know that you're you're in this for the long haul. You're these episodes were helpful to you. And hopefully we can get them out to more and more people. And so yeah, subscribe, like, hit that notification bell to get notified when we drop a new video. Today's video, we are about to dive into Hunter Buren's story. Now, Hunter is a great friend of mine. I know him as a very different man than the one that he talks about today. There has been radical change that has gone on in his life, radical pivots. But today, we're going to dive in to some of the war stories that he has when he was in the depths of his alcoholism. We're going to hear about when he was in junior high and experienced a school shooting. We are going to talk about substance abuse. We're going to talk about suicidal ideiation and even at the end a suicide attempt that was intervened by God in an amazing way. And it's just such a incredible story. And to see who Hunter is now is wild. We are not. I'm just going to give you a warning on this. This episode is the war stories of an alcoholic. That's what this is. This is diving into the trenches, going into the basement. At the very end, we get to I was going to kill myself, but surprise, I didn't. And this is why, and this is the crazy story. Next week, we're going to drop episode two, and that's when we get to dive into who Hunter is now and where he's how he's come from that moment where God saved him in an incredible way to being the amazing man that he is right now and how he got through alcoholism and depression and all these different things. It's wild. I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation. But if you are going to be triggered by those things, go watch another episode that we have, please. But if you can relate to this story, I I do encourage you to stick around because this is an incredible story taking us into the trenches with Hunter Buren. Thanks so much for watching you guys. Let's dive in. One of the questions I love asking is like, you're born >> Mhm. >> Okay. What are you born into? So, let's take it back. No, seriously. >> I was a side goat and then No, I'm just kidding. So, >> um well, yeah, I guess a little bit of background. So, I um >> I give my story a lot, too, but we were just talking about before this. I don't get to get into the nitty-gritty, but I don't prepare I haven't prepared at all. I didn't take notes or anything, too. I like to just keep it keep it authentic, I guess. But, um yeah, I guess going back, I was born into a my direct family is military. My mom and dad were both um in the army. So I I grew up in a setting where my dad and mom were both very high ranking officers in the United States military. My mom was a sergeant first class. She worked her way up. She was a bomb dog handler. Um she started in the military police and then worked her way through uh yeah just K9 school and uh worked her way up and she dealt with bomb detection, drug detection. Um my dad was a homicide detective and a crime uh like he was he started as an undercover I think too just to give a little like background too. So, um, my parents like to joke the story how they met. They say that drugs brought them together. U, which is ironic cuz they were the ones solving the drug case. My dad was like, you know, they did a bust and my dad was undercover for a while or whatever and they had this case and then, uh, they couldn't find the drugs when they apprehended everybody and they like couldn't find all the stuff that they were like looking for and they were like freaking out. And then so they called the canine unit. My mom shows up on the scene and within the first five minutes she gets her dog in there. She finds everything on floors. It looks at him and like, "Really? You called me and you didn't find this?" And then my dad was like, "I love the group." And then it was off from there. And then uh yeah, they had me in 1999. And then I think my mom then they got married like right at that at the same time. Their anniversary is the same as my birthday pretty much around the same time. >> And uh anyway, so I grew up it was very uh I mean chaotic and uh >> I don't know. I my version of my childhood and my growing up has shifted based on my perspective a lot too. I like to say like the longer I've >> been sober, which I'll get into, and the longer that I've um just grown in maturity and the closer I get to the Lord, the better my childhood has gotten and the more I've seen a perspective shift of just both my parents doing the best they could with what they had. And I owe and I'm indebted to them for for everything. But, you know, growing up, it was a lot of moving, a lot of running and gunning, a lot of like, you know, getting deployed to different duty stations. Like, I was born in rural Oklahoma on a military base. when they were stationed there. We were only there for a couple months and then we moved to a different place and then my first sentience I guess like memories of when I, you know, became conscious. I lived in South Korea and uh I was at a school on the military base there and u >> How old were you around that time? >> I was five I guess four or five when the first core memory kicks in. >> Would you say now now you said that um uh you know when when you're saying both my parents high ranking officers in the United States Army all these kind of things like >> was but then you say that it was kind of chaotic, right? Was it was it chaotic because you guys were moving around a lot or was it was it like a structured household? Was it? Yes. I mean, tell me a little bit about that. >> So, the dichotomy, right? Like moving around is definitely the catalyst, right? Like just in that lifestyle, especially with both parents, like it's it's not common for both parents to be dual military and then if they are, sometimes there's like a rank difference, too. But both my parents were very important at their jobs and very high ranking. So it was like both of them were had a the workload was like >> up there for them both. So it's like my mom I mean I grew up my mom was deployed to Iraq uh I think >> two times that I remember. I think she went to Bosnia as well and then she had a bunch of different duty stations where she had to go actually teach and do things. So she was traveling and leaving a lot. >> My dad worked a lot too but they worked out a deal where like he was able to be home more. Um but he still had times where he had to go work and take cases and and uh do whatever. He he worked like homicide and and uh for the criminal investigation division. But >> yeah, >> that dichotomy of just the change uh you know tangibly was a lot moving up uh moving around as a kid and then the home life environment was very structured, very rigid. My dad was not the guy he is today. He was very like, you know, I had to have my hair cut a certain way. Certain friend groups like everything was very dress right dressed. Like I wasn't allowed to I remember like in middle school like I wasn't allowed to go to the bus stop until my room was like detail clean. My bathroom was like at a certain standard or else I wasn't going to school that day. And it was like, you know, and very regimented. You know, expectations were really high. My dad used to like print out my report report card and I used to like I'd have like A's in all my other classes and I struggled in math and there would be like an 89 on something and he would like get a white or a red yellow highlighter or whatever and highlight it and show it to me like what's this and it would just like be a very >> looking back now it was like my dad had a standard and wanted me to have better than what he had and it was out of love in the way that he you know tried to show and instill that discipline in into me to have like a a spirit of excellence but in a way for me it felt like I I could never reach these like unattainable and mom in my life. I kind of missed a lot of those in my nurturing moments, you know, it was like dad kind of my way or the highway >> type deal and mom when she would come back she was dealing with not only have just gone to war and dealing with, you know, her career and everything like that, but also she was trying to play catch-up for lost time. So then I would get like kind of smothered by my mom or she wanted to be involved in like >> Cub Scouts and like she would be like on the board team for like football and like she would like you're going to be this and like she would like almost overcompensate to try to catch up for lost time. So I just felt this like >> kind of push from both ends I guess. So it kind of created some chaos and I'm just navigating being a kid, you know, and like I'm an only kid. I have a half sister. We share the same mom from my mom's previous marriage and uh I haven't seen her in person since I was nine. But she was in and out of my life uh a little bit growing up. There's always this theme of just like ripping roots out and then planting them somewhere else and then ripping roots out and then planting them somewhere else. My whole my family, my dad's side um is all from like small town Texas and New Mexico. They're all ranchers like cowboy very like you know similar I guess dichotomy of like very rigid structured Southern Baptist like you know kind of thing. But they were all from really like rural small towns. So like I'm out you know with my parents like a tumble weed bouncing around just trying to figure out you know my place I guess in the world and uh just a lot of inconsistency you know >> and that created a lot of stress you know in the home and parents were working really stressful jobs and so yeah it created a lot of tension you know and >> I always give the analogy like >> I was kind of like a chameleon just constantly trying to fit in and plant roots and just make friends and be like somewhere you know and like I'd always get put in a place where kids were all they had hometown friends and everybody like knew knew each other since like you know kindergarten and they grew up together and like I didn't have that. I was always like the outsider making an entry point so I was just trying to like fly below the radar. I got picked on a lot, you know, and I was the new kid, so it's like pretty typical, I guess. But like I I developed this that was a lot of blessings, too. Like I developed this very quick skill to like be social and learn how to talk and learn how to like integrate myself and be very hypervigilant of like my surroundings and then try to like fly below the radar so that I didn't stick out too much to get picked on, but I also wasn't like, you know, >> the outcast weirdo loser that everybody like gravitated towards, whatever. So, but I'd go from like living in Alaska, you know, I lived in Alaska for like 5 years. I'm into ice hockey, snowboarding, you know, fishing and outdoor stuff there too in the culture. And then all of a sudden, we get a new duty station and then I'm in El Paso, Texas. And now I'm like I'm wearing press dickies and a white t-shirt trying to learn Spanish and trying to fit in with these guys like, dude. And I'm like constantly trying to like assess my view of myself based on the view of how others see me around me. Not to mention with the pressure and the expectations from like my father and like you know my parental household. It was this constant theme I guess growing up that like >> I needed to meet a bar or like an expectation like I didn't have a lot of time to like sit and breathe and like learn what I like to do and like very you know and it sounds kind of victimy and I don't even like saying it cuz it's like but I used to play into the victim card role a lot. One of my early mentors said I was fluent in Vietnamese a lot when I met him and uh because it was everybody else's fault, but it was definitely like a factor, you know, I went through a lot and uh >> yeah, and so it just >> I I definitely think that um you know, we do this often, Lauren and I, when we're um you know, talking about uh raising our kids and we I I think it's a really healthy thing to do, but we we think often like >> how are our kids like we're going to mess them up somehow. Sure. >> Like what's the thing? What do we think the thing is going to be? And I know for me as a teacher, it's something that's like I when you talk about your dad like seeing all the A's and then like seeing the one B and kind of going like, "Hey, like >> what about this?" I just No, dude. I'm like, "Oh, man. >> Lord, help me to not do that to my kids because that could definitely be a thing." But I mean, do you feel like growing up that like that then translated into um I mean like like you talked about never feeling like you could kind of like get it or that there was always like something missing when you're like trying to fit in with all these different people. >> Sure. >> Um Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's um there's a lot to unpack and it's funny like how I said at the beginning like the more I've gotten closer to the Lord, the more I've maintained sobriety, the more that I have a perception shift and I grow in maturity, the better my childhood got and the fact that my perception has shifted to where a lot of those things were a blessing. But it was my response and the way that I took it and handled it and let it manifest into certain coping and behavior mechanisms to where it led to two different outcomes, right? Like now I'm on the other side of it, you know, where I have a disciplined work ethic. I'm very clean, you know, I'm very like particular and and very almost like OCD about how I like dust and clean and keep all my, you know, stuff. I take really good care of it. Very methodical. Um, I'm very aware. I'm very social. I'm very good at any social setting in place. Like I can make friends with anybody, every place, everything. I've seen a lot of cultures and backgrounds. I'm not trapped by the small town mentality where I think the axis of the globe runs through my town like at all. like I I have this broad, you know, culture, you know, thing of what I seen growing up, you know, but I think as a kid without the fundamental like coping skills of how to like navigate and deal that like anything I say too, I like to preface this a lot anytime I give a talk or anything >> is like it sounds all really buttoned up right now obviously because hindsight's always 2020, but like back then I didn't have the vernacular or the articulation or the ability to express >> what was going on in real time. All I knew is that I felt uncomfortable. Yeah. And I felt bad. But even then, I didn't know how to even say that or express that. So, it came out in a lot of different ways, right? And you know, you >> you know, I don't know. It's like you >> you muzzle an oxen long enough or you like put somebody into this like framework of how they're supposed to be and you don't give them any wiggle room for failure mistakes or anything. Eventually, it's going to lead to for me it turned into like rebellion and it turned to like bucking and kicking back to where I was like eventually like, "Okay, >> you think that's bad? Watch this." And then I I kind of was like I turned into the opposite direction. And I think it was just this lack, >> you know, you talk about >> parents and like parenting your children, like where are we going to go wrong? Where are we going to make a mistake? It's like >> I don't know. I'm a dog trainer like by trade now and uh used to be a chef. And like both of those like skills and, you know, trades and whatever, >> there's no room for hiding. You can't hide anything. It's like the proof is in the pudding of like whatever you put on a plate or however the dog turns out, like you can see your strengths and weaknesses. And it's like I feel like that with parenting too is like although there is that like a product of like XYZ, nobody gets a handbook like you don't get handed a like package if you get a puppy or if you have a baby of like here's exactly what you need to do like perfectly right and it's like we do that we have that like with the human experience and the more I get close to people I'm fascinated by like sociology and psychology and the way that humans like work and our you know god innate given nature to socialize and need people and connection and things like I see this constant like almost unrealistic perfection that we put on ourselves and that we put on society and other people. I think social media is a grand experiment of exposing that like huge where you see anybody can post anything and you'll have 20 different perspectives of criticism and opinion and all these things of how it should or shouldn't be >> and I think there's a missing lack of where there needs to be grace and like transparency and like just reflection and I think it's beautiful to like allow that and and uh I didn't get a lot of that growing up you know and um >> when you're talking about this I'm just like it's it's So, like what you just said was so articulate and like you could tell that like there's been deep thought that's gone into even your vernacular like you talked about like you didn't have those tools back then but and we're going to get into this too but you've done a lot of work right to get to a place where you can even talk in that way that's that's coherent with this good vocabulary and everything but I mean do you always feel like you were a deep thinker like you are now >> like even in in childhood like did you have like existential thoughts kind of thing or was it >> Yeah. Yeah. I think so. The more I look back like I I do remember having that. I don't know. It's kind of like a it's it's kind of like I don't know. I learned something cool about goldfish >> recently where uh a goldfish will grow as big as the container you put it in. And so I feel like it's a good analogy kind of where I had >> I was always the kid in school where it's like he has so much potential and like I had this like >> I had a lot of like cognitive ability and like ways to think. I was proficient in school. Things were easy. I was very quick and very like intelligent but I had no funnel. Like there was no guidelines. It was just I mean I had rigid like you know guidelines but there was like no >> I guess direction. So it became very overwhelming. Like I I I used to be like I still am like a yapper. My brain idles at like 75 miles an hour and that was like it's it's a it was a blessing and a curse at the same time because like when it's focused on something and applied in a good manner, right? like when it's you know it's obviously a gift and a blessing from God but when using when using when used in a you know manner that's like reckless without wisdom guidance or direction like it became >> exhausting and it was something that like I never had a place to put it and I would try to bring that >> you know to my dad or talk about it to my teachers and like all they saw on the surface was like this kid like talks a lot but like but then my teachers I remember all the time like my mom would have to go in for like a a parent teacher conference thing and they'd be like oh he's really respectful he says yes sir no sir yes ma'am he's very organ organized and clean, but and there was always this butt. He talks and distracts the kids a lot, this, this, and that. And there was always times where they would like I'd be distracted or talking to a student or doing something, trying to be the class clown, whatever my social thing was going on. And then my teacher would like >> try to pull the, "Hey, what did we just go over and what are we talking about?" Trying to see like call me out and I would answer the question correctly and they'd be like, >> "Oh, like he actually knows what's going on." Like, yeah. Like I would get bored. like I would finish things and then just >> try to distract you know whatever we call it ADHD you know nowadays but I think it was just there was a scope of definite existential thoughts. I would think about things like >> you know I would think about death and I would think about you know I saw a lot growing up. I would think about very different social things of like why my dad gravitated towards a quick temper. Why are my parents like the way? I asked a lot of wise and I was like I I was very much the type of kid to be like why why why like my dad would explain to that's just the way it is and I would be like well why like there has to be a deeper like I don't understand that and I was always constantly >> trying to I guess >> figure things out in that way. Um >> yeah and I that's awesome. >> Yeah. picked up on things quick. But then again, like I said, like you put it in in a different vessel in the way that I think socially I didn't have a place. I didn't have fertile soil or roots deep enough to like allow that to have room to foster and grow and develop. So, it turned into kind of like a frantic chaotic like >> constant like searching of I didn't know where to put it, right? And uh and I had this weird like >> belief that somehow it was wrong, you know, to ask questions or it was wrong to >> Yeah. I don't know. like >> cuz you have the answers. This is what it is. You don't need to ask more. >> Yeah. Kind of thing, you know, and that wasn't it's it's not as black or white at that. It's obviously nuance. We could have a whole podcast just talking about that conception. But like I think I don't know. I think I could sum it up to where it's like the biggest resentment I held towards people and my dad specifically and just my upbringing was that I felt like nobody took the time to ask me why. >> Yeah. >> Why are you like that? Like why do you want to know that? Like and so I could like have room to explain it. It was just like don't say that. don't talk about this, don't do this. And it was just kind of like duh duh. And it was all these like things. And I don't mind. I'm a good rule follower and I'm good. Like I understand why there needs to be a construct of rules and all these things. I understood that at a fundamental level I think growing up, but >> with no wiggle room for me to like express or understand the depths of it. It led to frustration a lot and a lot of just feeling unheard >> and a lot of feeling like misunderstood in a way and like I don't know every >> I don't I'm not like the edgy type of like I was just so misunderstood and nobody like you don't understand my story kind of like you know pity party thing but there was like a little bit of just >> I never felt like I fit in. It always like a glass of social, sit at the lunchroom, do normal over here, overthinking how what am I going to say here, how am I going to say this, how are they going to perceive me? And it was just like my brain would just constantly >> feel that. And um yeah, it was a lot. It stressed me out, you know, a lot. And so >> so I mean from from there, that's kind of like where where you came from this this upbringing a little bit, this dress right dress kind of thing. Um, and then you talked about a little bit of like then that turned internally >> for you to kind of go again, you think that's bad, watch this kind of thing. And I mean, when did when did that kind of start? When did that mentality in in your mind start? >> I think it was a gradual thing. I don't think there was like one black or white moment to be like after this everything changed and this was my villain arc. Like I think it was more of this progressional like Chinese water torture of just the drops like hitting over and over and I had and like I say it like I was like some melancholy like you know like kid like dude I was a happy golucky kid. I had a lot of passions. I had a lot of good times with my family. My parents and my dad would take me fishing and like you know I had a lot of really awesome memories and experiences and I was just like happy golucky and just like excited and got into sports and like I loved life like and I was like that kind of kid. I think every kid is born with an in like I don't know like an innate innocence and curiosity and like you know beauty in the world like with this fresh set of eyes. I heard one time like it's beautiful having children. I don't have children myself but like you get to see the world through a new set of glasses every time you talk to a child cuz they're seeing it all for the first time before we have like >> all of the you know gunk on the windshield of what our perceptions are by like life and the reality of living you know in a broken world. And um >> so I think it was >> I have a I have a student named Nolan >> who I've taught for years and he's just like this I call him my little buddy dude. He's like started teaching him when he's probably five. >> He's like eight or nine now and it's it's uh um the whole time teaching him like he'd he'd come into lessons and we'd be learning ukulele or whatever and he he'd go I have a question. You're like okay go for it dude. And he goes, >> "How did you meet your wife?" >> And like it just like these deep questions. It's like he's like not just asking it >> like just to ask it, but he's like asking it because he genuinely wants to hear the story behind it. It's interesting when you're talking with me about that and like seeing the world through through a child's eyes and through this curiosity. Like he is somebody that always just asks why why. So when you're talking about that, I think about Nolan. >> Yeah. I think kids are more perceptive than people give them credit for. Like I don't know. I don't believe in the whole like kids are to be seen not heard type of thing. Like we're not like kids aren't ignorant. The more I see kids and like obviously there's ranges of intellect and like you know capacity and whatever >> but like I think >> yeah I think we don't give us all like as kids like enough credit for like our ability to perceive and learn things and it's like such a >> meaningful developmental stage of why like >> I don't know. And so I think there's a lot more to be unpacked there that I experienced a lot. This is just a thought that I'm I'm having right now too. But it's like isn't it so interesting that like that that is something that we can both observe and go like yeah this curiosity of kids and asking all these questions and all this kind of stuff. But then it's also like >> we think about Jesus and he's like hey unless you have faith like these children >> then like you won't enter the kingdom of God kind of thing. And it's like when you think about >> a child >> doing that like asking why all the time >> that's so cool. I don't know. I just had that thought. >> I think yeah well I think about that scripture a It was kind of impactful to me, I think, too. And it I think it speaks to so many different layers. But when I first read that, it was like, you know, you hear like a blind faith or a childlike faith, like cuz a child's supposed to just trust their dad and say yes and like have a blind like, you know, trust. I think there's a layer of that too of where we need to have that. But I don't think that's like >> necessarily all of what Jesus was talking about. But I think there's a layer to it where it's like to have this innocence and curiosity to not be bound by these rigid knowings like I know and these opinions and like >> um just hills that we can die on of what we think we understand and know >> that turn into judgment towards people or surroundings and other >> you know situations that we're thrown at in life. Like I think there's this like fluidity and openness that a child has to where it's like they could think something's one way but you introduce another topic. That's why you can convince them and talk to them about like Santa Claus and like they can have an imagination in this like thing, but you can also then eventually break it to them that it's not and they have the they have the ability to change. >> And I think that's like the be beauty of it is where it's like never being like solidified in this final like thing, >> product end, you know, result thing with a cap and gown. I think it's this human condition and beauty. I think that speaks to like even adults and people in life that there's no like finish line until death and like we're meant to be fluid and grow and be teachable and have humility and know that like you know I am but a finite you know person being or whatever there's always things that I can you know grow into and I think growing up >> I felt that pressure of like needing to be a certain way and I think when I wasn't able to have that wiggle room >> to like ask explore and do things it kind of just made me internalize and then I got quiet I stopped asking questions and it kind of like snuffed out the light a little bit and I got frustrated or I got angry or I would get like confused. >> When do you feel like that happened? >> Uh oh yeah. So like back then what age >> the tapering process? Probably like when we finally settled. My parents retired from the military in like 2010 and uh we settled in small town New Mexico where my dad's parents were from. And uh so I went from like all this stuff to like this little rural like farm town kind of deal >> and uh where my family was and stuff. Then I got introduced I went so I had like a I had a a upbringing that had Christian themes to it. I went to like a private school. >> Yeah. >> Um I think it was just my parents attempt to be like well there's so much chaos and things going around or whatever. We're just going to put him here and hopefully that like fixes him or like helps him you know whatever. And you know my parents were you know my mom wasn't a believer growing up when she met my dad and like but I I watched her get baptized I think when I was like eight or nine. Um, and I I watched my parents' faith kind of like grow. My dad was growing up like Southern Baptist kind of, so there was this air of like influence, but not really like a depth to it where it was like I would see these two sides of my dad where we'd go to church on Sunday morning and I'd have to like sit in the pew and do the thing and do the deal. And then Sunday afternoon, my dad could be like, you know, going through something or like end up drinking and then all of a sudden like there's a blow up at home and now all of a sudden we're not living by these principles. And then even at a private school too, that was like where I got picked on the most, dude. All these kids were very like, >> you know, judgmental and mean and like it was I don't know. It was weird. But then like, you know, when the teacher like the pastor or whoever came by, we were all like, "Oh, hey, how's it going?" Like, you know, it was just this weird like inconsistency of authenticity, I think. And so >> I think that influenced a lot, but there was a >> there was a influence of that growing up, but there wasn't any depth or even root to that. It was this surface level. So I always believe there was like a God. I used to pray a lot as a kid and I used to like you know people would tell me to pray and like I would I would kind of have that I guess thing but the more that life happened to me the more that like my mom got deployed the more that questions didn't get answered the more that adults kind of like or that I would get picked on the more life and suffering and tragedy and things that just took place in life everybody experiences it. I'm not I'm not special. I'm not unique, but like, you know, I was in a school shooting when I was um in 8th grade. Uh 2013, uh it happened and was on the news for a bit, but it was kind of in the season where there was a lot. So, um, I witnessed a student come in and and took a saw off shotgun from home and he opened fire in our gymnasium and there was like packed we were all waiting for the bell to ring before school because it was cold outside and so I watched him like shoot a couple students like right in front of me and uh >> Wow. >> That was kind of the straw I think that broke the camel's back. >> Yeah. >> How old were you when that happened? >> 13. >> Wow. >> And uh yeah, 13 or 14 I think. And uh that was the catalyst of like finally kind of realizing that oh if there and I didn't have this thought completely buttoned up but it was basically like oh there can't like this god guy is pretty distant you know like if this is stuff is happening and like you know my life at home felt like gnarly. My dad when my parents retired from the military they like lost their identity. Like my dad went from like super high ranking military like everyone needed and relied upon him to where now he's just a civilian. And I have a deep compassion for military members who just go out into the real world after that and there's no transition and all of a sudden like all your purpose and design and everything that's ingrained in you is now like you just got to go figure it out. And I watched him deal with that poorly. >> My mom was very good at like compartmentalizing. She didn't drink. She was like into pickle ball, golf, like work and things like that and following my dad and caring for the family and uh pouring into me. But my dad turned to the bottle a lot and would turn to drinking and turn to work. like he would, you know, I always say like he retired for like a week and then he got into like picking up other things to like provide. I need to provide for my family. I need to put a roof over their heads. There was this kind of like weird urgency of needing that. And um so anyways, I just progressively I think being a sideline observer of all that happening, things happening to me and like >> when it finally snapped. >> Yeah. I mean, so so it's like you you're you're 13. Is that around the same time that your your parents had retired? >> Yeah. 2010. So this was in 2013. Um, you can always track my age cuz I was born at the end of 1999, whatever year it is, that's how old I was. Um, but this was like 3 years after they retired and like it was like kind of getting in a groove. I was in middle school. I had started to like make friends, but it was a it was hostile going from public school to then or private school to then public school. I had a whole new world of like >> things and social things and things that I didn't know about what kids were looking up on the internet and language and like there was just a way different dichotomy and I was just thrusted into that. And uh I think a lot of it got pent up. I got I got into a lot of fights in that transition. Like I think in fifth grade was my first year in public school and I got into like two fights. >> Um and I got kicked out of school and and uh >> Did you win? >> Yeah. I've been holding up, dude. I've been pulling the freaking slingshot back forever and I finally like let it go. But >> but even to that too, it's like, you know, I'm not the I'm not like a a tough guy. I don't like the whole demeanor of like I won every fight that I was in. But I I see it now as like this child who was so like defensive and insecure to where it was like >> a regular scuff or like a fight or like hitting a kid would have been one thing, but it felt like >> there was always this air >> of like I took it too far or I wouldn't stop and it was like I had this anger and this pent up like needed to like release that like when something like that would happen and a conflict would happen or I'd get picked on like eventually I just got to the point where I was tired >> of playing the game and trying to fit in and trying to win your approval that I would just snap. And it was like years of unpented stuff would be taken out. And I remember, you know, like, you know, it's cool like when you're, you know, you see it on like videos and stuff, people like >> recording a fight be like, "Oh, he punched that guy." But then it would be like, >> "Oh, he's still punching that guy. Okay, like Hunter, whoa, whoa." And everyone would like look at me and I'm thinking that I'm going to be like the, "Oh yeah, like aren't I cool?" But everyone's looking at me like, "Yo, that kid's a crazy person. Like what is going on?" on and like I just I remember that and I was like I was in fifth grade and like there was this perpetual thing but then it would like I'd snap back getting you know whatever and it was always justified like I was very manipulative and intellectual socially so like I could >> I could like I think use my words to elicit like a response from you if you started to pick on me I'd play like a mind game and I was kind of smarter and quicker than most so I could like >> pick things apart out of you to get you frustrated and then as soon as you swung on me it gave me a reason or as soon as something would happen it gave me a reason and now I'm like bet and then I would like it was really weird behavior and that just naturally nobody taught me that but it was just >> I mean yeah it's like you're a kid just searching for an outlet kind of thing. >> Yeah 100% and um so anyways yeah after I think the years of that progressing and dad blowing his lid at home and me like not being able to ever meet expectations and then >> even on the football team and like whatever it was just like I didn't like male authority. I didn't like authority at all. I didn't like somebody putting their finger in my face saying you need to do this and you need to do that. I just got that my whole life. So I was finally like and after the shooting I think I assessed that and I was just like dude what's the point? Like this is what was that like? I mean processing through that school shooting. >> There was really no processing. I don't know. It was like we it was always weird. I always tell that when I tell that story. >> Yeah. >> It's like it happened. It happened so quick and it all happened so fast and we all saw it. It was like right in front of me. and I watched some kid get shot like you know I know this is like a family like podcast or whatever but like >> I saw >> just real quick it's not we're we're going to put a disclaimer at the beginning >> that says in this podcast we talk about recovery and and a school shooting that happened right so I'm going to be vulgar I'm just kidding um but no it was uh it was gnarly like I was 13 and I watched some kid get shot almost point blank from like 10 yards away in the face with a shotgun and it was like >> no human should ever see that and like I saw that as a kid and it was like I remember just sitting there watching and like adrenaline. Kids are running, people are screaming. There's all these different reactions and I remember just staring and being like, "What the hell is going on?" And like it happened really quick. We all like got on lockdown. They apprehended the shooter and then we had to wait until the police came and like did a clearance and then they had to clear room by room and make sure everything was safe, whatever. There was just still a lot going on. And uh my parents came to pick me up. My dad was like front of the line like came up there like my dad I think like you know used his like credentials or whatever. I need to get my son like very like protect whatever. Anyway, so I go home, dude. Within like 2 hours after that, I'm playing Minecraft and Call of Duty on my Xbox with all my friends who were just there. And we were all like playing and we were like, "What the heck just happened?" We were like, "Did that really just happen?" >> And then it was just like back to school in a month or like I don't even know if it was a month, maybe it was like a week or two and we were just back into school and there was kids seeking counseling. I think my parents took me to therapy once cuz I remember after that the family was like, "Holy crap." So they took us to like we had like a family trip to like our our ranch that we went to. We had a nice ranch in New Mexico and >> I remember seeing the report on the news. They were watching the news at night >> and I remember seeing it >> on the news and it kind of like made it real. It like sunk in and then I remember kind of getting emotional and like >> freaking out and then I went and saw a therapist but we I went once and I just like didn't know how to talk about it and I didn't get shot. So it was like you know but I use that as like this >> justification to be like >> dude why am I trying so hard to like meet all these if this is what the world has to offer dude. I'm like, bro, like I don't I don't know. And so >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And um >> so then that's that's 13. And then from there, I mean, do you feel like that's where things started to change or develop? >> Yeah. The summer after that, I started hanging around, >> you know, not like the wrong crowdish, but I just started getting more like what do I want to do? Like what do I I want to see like my parents have been telling me not to touch the hot stove my whole life. Like I'm going to go out and touch it. And uh and so I started like, you know, listening to different like music and watching like more explicit like movies. And then um I was in the age, you know, group where we got the internet at like >> like middle school >> and you know, beginning of high school. So like we're watching like live leaks and people getting their heads cut off and like you could just see all this stuff. Porn was like easily accessible. So like all this stuff is like exposed to like a a young kid. And so it just started to influence me in a way where like I just started to like explore things and like kids were talking about smoking weed and I was like, "Oh, what's we like? What's that? This, this, and that." And I watched my dad drink a lot too and that was a big factor. I think uh I got drunk for the first time when I was 10 >> out of the effort of like seeing my dad turn towards the bottle and constantly questioning like why is he turning towards that so much? Like what is in that that is so special that he would like put his >> you know care and attention into that more than you know I felt like me sometimes. And uh so I remember sneaking in his liquor cabinet one night and uh pulling out a glass of or a bottle of whiskey and I remember taking it back to my room and I must have taken like >> 10 shots, dude. I was just like drinking it like he would drink it and so I didn't know about obviously tolerance or anything like that and I blacked out. I'd love to say that like >> the heavens parted and I felt like alive and like whatever. Dude, I was like 10 so I like blacked out, threw up. I think I like tried to watch G.I. Joe and I passed out in the shower and then I like woke up the next day like oh what the hell and I like hid the bottle. didn't tell anybody ever, but that was like one of the catalysts that started to grow into like all I remember from that experience from substances like from alcohol >> was that however I was feeling before the anxious tight pen up like nervous like kind of kid >> I didn't feel that way when I was drunk like I didn't there was some level of like escape where I was like oh this feels good and I can do this it gave me like a like a psychic change like something different and I think I gravitated more towards that when I saw kids like you know smoking weed and then smoking cigarettes and like doing things like that, sneaking beers from like whatever. And so I started to kind of like experiment with things like that and I was like this thrill and this chase and that became something that I was like, "Oh, I got something that I like that I can like do now." And uh while I was playing sports, making friends and and you know, wasn't all chaotic right out the gate. I believe that, you know, >> I mean, I'll get into it too, but I'm an alcoholic. I'm like a recovered, you know, alcoholic now, but um I don't believe anybody's born as like a chronic alcoholic. I didn't just like switch and like now all of a sudden I'm drinking every day and I'm like doing whatever. I'm not like the bum with a brown paper bag behind the dumpster, you know, type thing of what people picture it as. It was this progression >> that slowly started to take place where like, >> you know, I like the analogy of like >> normal people, we call them like normies, like people who can handle their like liquor and aren't addicts or can drink a glass of wine and leave it alone. >> They adjust their drinking to meet their goals and aspirations. I started to develop into the person that was adjusting my goals and aspirations to meet my drinking or then all of a sudden my priorities shifted. Can you say that again? That was really good. >> Yeah. Like where normal people um change their drinking in order to meet their goals and aspirations. Like you know, you go to college or you get a wife or you have a kid now all of a sudden I need to cut it back. I can't party anymore. And you make adjustments to where it's like now the career is more important. You have this natural transition into like prioritizing more maturity in life and things like that. For me, and I think this is common amongst a lot of addicts and alcoholics where it's like I started to compromise and adjust my goals and aspirations to meet my drinking and I didn't want to give that up. Like this gave so much freedom for me and the ability to feel like felt like I could take a deep breath for the first time that I've been holding in forever. I didn't have to meet expectations. Didn't care what my dad thought. I could talk to girls. I could socialize and not give a crap. And like I felt like the man and I just felt like all like the puzzle pieces just aligned and I was like whatever this feeling is I want to do this >> because it makes me feel okay and >> and it fostered this environment that was like perfect soil for somebody to abuse that you know and um >> and so that that first drink was at was at 10. >> Yeah. >> And then >> I didn't do anything until after the shooting. like 14. Summer before high school, I remember I was like hanging out with my friend and we had gotten our hands on some weed and we got ripped off, dude. I think we paid 20 bucks for like less than a grand, but we were like sick. We were like stoked, dude. And we were like, "We're going to do this." We had just watched like Chich and Chong and like whatever. And and Whiz Khalifa was really big and Snoop Dogg. And so we're like, "These guys do this. Let's freaking do it." And we smoked. And I remember feel that same kind of feeling. Yeah. >> I was like, "Whoa, dude. Like this is something I can roll with. Like I don't feel like myself anymore." And I like that, you know? And uh because my baseline reality was like the restless, irritable, discontent, scared, insecure, angry kid, you know, whatever that people picked on and that I was insecure and whatever. Um >> and when you were affected by substances, it took you out of that. >> Yes. It gave me like relief where all of a sudden I was like who I wanted to be. It's like the reality of who I wanted to be and myself. Like when I drank or used, it closed the gap where I actually felt like I was that guy >> and I felt like I could like fit in my own skin and feel comfortable. But then when I got sober or when I like sobered up or the next day, that gap would slowly start to spread and then the person who I wanted to be or thought I should be would be here and I would feel back here and there was this constant need to try to close the gap close the gap of like feeling okay. >> Um >> and so that that developed more and more and I mean >> yeah yeah now all of a sudden like I'm reel dude I don't care. I'm not listening to my dad. I'm like starting to be that like kind of arrogant like kid or I'm just like I'm fighting even more at school. I started wrestling and I started playing football and I kind of you know became like >> not like this like tough guy bar. There was this false pride and this false sense of like overcompensation to just it was it was really an effort to try to protect myself and protect my ego and like not have to be vulnerable because that was painful for me to address those emotions and this gave me a way of escape from it. So I was just burying it and putting it in a bag >> and uh but then those outlets would come. But then I started skipping class and like I just started doing more thrilling and exciting things that I never got to do or never did or had the you know courage to do I guess. And uh and the result and path of me like living up to those expectations of being the good kid and going to youth group and going to school and doing all this stuff it led me to pain >> and it never met me it never led to like attra. So, I was just like, well, that path when I tried to do hard and I got straight A's and did all this stuff, >> that didn't work for me. Like, that wasn't fun. Like, I didn't feel accomplished or at all. This when I'm doing the things that you guys are telling me not to do, >> like, dude, I'm getting encouraged by my friends and now all of a sudden I'm the guy who's like funny and I'm like the guy who's like doing, you know, exciting things. I'm getting like adrenaline and I'm like, oh, this like taboo of like I'm doing something I'm not supposed to. It's like exciting, you know, in a certain way. And I chase that like progressively. And then, you know, flash forward by my junior year, I'm like I'm like trying different drugs and like, you know, there's nothing I won't do. Like, I'm not, you know, we talk about addict, alcoholic, it's all the same thing under the under the umbrella, I think, term people get weird about in the weeds of how you define it, but it's an >> coming to the understanding that drugs and alcohol wasn't my problem. That was my solution to my problem. Like, I had an abnormal reaction to being sober, >> like to being me, and I needed an external thing to fix it. And it can manifest in any ways. I've seen people do it with money, sex, job, career, family, even like whatever it is, like to find your value. If it's external, >> it's this God-sized hole that everybody has that we're trying to fill to meet that satisfaction. And I just chased it. This was my avenue and this is what worked for me. And then >> it got unruly to where I just wasn't listening to authority. I was arguing back at home. I was bucking back to my dad. I was getting a little bit bigger. I was physically able to kind of defend myself a little bit more. He couldn't put his hands on me anymore because I'd threaten him and I'd be like, "Dude, I don't think you're an old man, dude." play and I started to get kind of like >> a chip on my shoulder and um and then I'd have emotional outburst and I'm crying at home. You don't understand. I'm like punching holes in the wall. I was just like a mess, dude. Freaking hot mess, dude. >> And uh I'm getting caught all the time. And then I stopped caring that I got caught. Like I wouldn't even try to hide it anymore. And I wouldn't even try to like conceal it or pretend like I wasn't, you know, loaded. And I was just >> What was What was discipline like when you got caught at home, >> dude? Um wait till your dad gets home. That was like the biggest threat that you could say at my house. Like >> yeah, >> my mom was kind of a yeller. She wasn't like an out-of-croll yeller, but she would just raise her voice. She was like a good she wasn't a drill sergeant, but she had that to her, you know, and and uh >> I she was my mom, but I could also like play her like a fiddle, dude. She loved me to death. She was my best friend. I love my mom, dude. We were like, we were really close. >> Um but my dad was like the I could remember growing up. We had this thing in my house. It was called the Member Stick. There was this George Lopez uh episode that I watched growing up that my dad liked. He used to watch that. And uh there was this like bit where they were talking about you remember. Oh, I remember. I remember. But they were just saying that. And so my dad got a Home Depot paint stirer. Yeah. You know those things like the thin piece of wood or whatever. And he would he wrote on it, this is the member stick. And he would lash me with that on my back and my butt and the back of my thighs every time I got in trouble and would whail on me with that thing so that I would remember what I did wrong and not have to do it again. And that was like a lot of physical, >> you know, punishments. My dad was also like a very hottempered dude. He would scream and yell and like he never hit me, never beat me, never like, you know, >> abuse me in the sense of like I think how the term gets thrown around today, but it was very >> very authoritative and he wasn't afraid to get physical with me, right? And that's what that looked like. And then I'd get grounded. I'd get >> stuff taken, take the keys, take the car, take the whatever. And like it didn't matter at the end of the day. Like it it eventually turned into where I'm going to find a way. I'll kick out the screen door. I'll call a friend, have him come pick me up. I'll I'll weasel and manipulate and find any way to get what I want. Cuz now all of a sudden this priority, right, this compromise of like what drugs and alcohol did for me, it worked for me. It was like my first love and it gave me that satisfaction. This is holding the key to like where I feel okay. You don't have that for me. So anything standing in between that scholarship, football team, rules, parents, whatever, >> if you're standing in between me and that drink, it's out of my life and I'll find a way to weasle around it and I'll compromise >> my morals to get there. And so it started to shift that. And I'd steal my dad's truck. I'd steal my car back. I would sneak out of the house. I'd go off and do things and keep getting caught. My parents were just like at at no end because like no amount of discipline was working for me anymore. I don't care. I'd take take the punishment. Whatever. I'm going to do it anyways, you know? And I just started to have this kind of air of rebellion of just like >> like I'm just like you don't have anything that works for me. This works for me. And um >> but then you ended up going into um I mean the the career that you ended up going into was culinary, right? And so kind of talk about that transition. This is who you're turning into. This guy with a chip on his shoulder fighting back at home. Sure. >> And then you graduate and do you go to culinary school? >> No. So there was a big I didn't graduate um traditionally at high school. So by the time I'm 17, my parents had to do an intervention. I got kicked out of the house. I remember the last the first time I got kicked out. Like we had another big blow up and my dad was like, "Why are you doing this?" And they My parents, my poor parents, too dude, they were at their wits end. And they were like trying to seek help getting the youth pastor involved who I stopped going to a long time ago. They were trying to now get the church involved and talk to me. like every rationale or expense of like trying to get me help. I got a therapist who I weasled in. I like literally manipulated my therapist into like >> signing a medical marijuana card over to a 17-year-old. Like that's crazy, dude. Like and I and I walked my way into that and I knew how to like manipulate and I told her like all the symptoms and all the things and she was like, "Oh, this must help him." And that I don't know. Hope she doesn't lose her license over that. I'm not going to say your name, but uh but anyways, like I I like, you know, would get what I want. And uh it got to the point my parents were at their wits end. And anyways, the last time we had a blow up, my dad, he asked me this question and he was like, "Do you even want to be like in this family anymore? Do you even want to like live here?" Cuz I could start to see my dad was like softening up. He was starting to see like what was going on with me and he just felt this guilt that every parent, you know, felt feels, you know, when a kid's going through that. I was like, "Where did I go wrong?" And I remember him asking me that question and I just remember being like, "F this family." Yeah. >> I was like, I don't want to be here and f you. And I just like remember looking at him stone cold and it like broke him, dude. And uh but then it turned into anger. I remember he had hurt his knee during that time. So he had like a little cane that he was walking around with like the same material as like a crutch that like hollow aluminum and I like turned my back and uh I like said, "F you f this." like loped up on my dad and then I turned around and walked away and he broke that thing over my back and just like swung it like a baseball bat and it broke over my back and then I remember like throwing [ __ ] at him and we like >> sorry watch my language but um >> we had this huge knockdown drag out. I packed my bags and I bounced and I was like I'm out of here and I I was like cool with that. I was like bet freedom like I can do whatever I want. I don't need to live at home. I'll get a job. I'll do whatever I want to do. Whatever. >> That didn't last that long. I was couch hopping stay at a friend's house and everybody was like who was normal right? who was like they were what college are we going to go to like we're still doing sports they were like looking at me like Hunter what do you mean you're like not living at home like what and I had like friends and people who loved me and cared about me >> cuz I wasn't just that guy all the time I had the good sides of me it was like Dr. Jackekal Mr. hide kind of like >> shift, you know, and uh >> such a good book if you haven't read it. >> Yeah, Eden Poe freaking I did pay attention in English class. What's up? Um and >> yeah, dude, it it was this shifting and so all my friends are like Hunter, like dude, this isn't okay. Like they were trying to like even my friends were trying to rationale, but then it got to the point where I was in enough pain >> and uh not liking where I was living and I kind of had a little moment of clarity and then my dad was there. I remember calling my dad and being like, "Dude, I I don't want to do this anymore." and I got tired and uh he showed up with my youth pastor and they had planned this whole intervention >> and they got me in the car and I remember my youth pastor like gave me this Bible and like had this whole spiel. I think it went in one ear and out the other but they took me to my family's ranch and then all of a sudden I'm in uh Teen Challenge this like program. It's like a faith-based like program. It's pretty gnarly. It's like Bible boot camp where they just like freaking get you in this program, shove it down your throat. A lot of ex-convicts and a lot of like really troubled people and teens go through this like last ditch, you know, kind of program. My parents read up on it and uh so I end up there and for my going junior going into my senior year. >> Was that a live program? >> I was in Nevada, dude. They pulled me out of the state and put me into this like facility, dude. And I was like, >> yeah, rules and chow time and all this stuff. It was very regimented, but it was the same thing. And I'm a manipulator. I'm a chameleon. I can I'm a rehab >> stud. You put me in like an institution or a place where I need to like get the heat off my back, >> I'll turn into I'll mold myself into like >> whoever you need to be. >> Yeah, exactly. Whoever I need to be. And uh I'll go to the groups and I'll learn the jargon. I'll say the song and dance. I'll have breakthroughs in therapy just saying what I I think you want to hear so that I get the heat off my back so that I can inevitably >> go back to doing what I want to do, right? And I'm not telling you all this and I don't even know that that's what I'm doing, but I'm just doing it. And uh >> long story short, I I get pulled out of that place cuz there was some kind of sketchy stuff going on there. It was not really ran very uh ethically. And so, uh, I used that as a ploy to like be like, "See, you like sent me to this like place, whatever." And, uh, >> yeah, >> there was just some staff members there that were not being very nice to us. They were just they had like they were like they were products of like the adult program. So, they were talking to the kids like we were adults. They were like, "You maggot like yelling at me." And I'm like, "I'm 17. I'm like playing the victim even though like a minute ago I'm looked up on them acting like a hard ass and doing all this stuff and whatever." So I get put in this other program in Texas and I go through it for like 11 months and it's again live in you work your way up through it and there was a lot that went on there and and I kind of had some like breakthrough. I got exposed to like reading my Bible again. It was a faith-based program but nobody taught me about alcoholism through that season in that period of time. It was like your inner child. What are your triggers? Oh that must have been so bad when you were a you know kid and your dad did that to you. Oh the school shooting must have been this. Now, I'm not deflecting or minimizing the fact that those are very traumatic and necessary events where therapy and the therapeutic community was necessary for me to have to process and go through. But I think unknowingly, this is why there's a huge misconception around the uh alcoholic and recovery community. When people look at addicts and alcoholics, they treat it like it's a morality issue >> and they treat it as though it's something that is like >> for me it's like trimming the the top of a weed so that you can't see it. You never pull the root out. And nobody taught me about like alcoholism of like addiction and like hey like I think there's something deeper going on here that you might not have control of. And I and I dealt with all that and I was like you're right. And I had breakthroughs with my parents and I would do all the therapy and I'd have like oh I'm going to church. I'm putting my hands up again. And I was kind of like seeking like maybe the God thing might work for me. But then deep down I'm like >> there was just something still like this like spring that was still just getting tighter and tighter cuz I had to be sober while I was there. So, like my time clock is ticking and it's like until I needed to get loaded again. And uh and I was able to put the plug in the jug and do the whole song and dance, but then >> I get out, I'm cured. I think this is a big misconception for a lot of people who go through rehab or go through places like that to where all of a sudden you do this program, you you wash your hands, you walk out, I'm a different person, I'm changed forever. I'm never going back. >> And that was not the case. And I went through that and I had some changes. I had some breakthroughs, right? And I played the whole song and dance. And then I get a scholarship from the military cuz my parents service. They paid for my school. I went to the same college in Western Colorado University in Gunnison, Colorado. My my mom gave me her old Jeep. So I got like a 2018 Jeep and like my parents were like, "Oh, you're fixed. Like we got our son home. He's back." Cuz I'm like cool with them again. I'm like regulating. I'm learning like, "All right, well, when I act like a freaking delinquent, I'm going to get in trouble. So now I'm going to play the part of like, >> yeah, everything's cool. Mom and dad, I love you." And I did. And I still loved them and cared about them. I owned up to some stuff but like I never really addressed the issue and uh >> internally there was still that turmoil right >> and it was it was a lot of just surface level stuff that was like again no knock to the therapeutic community I'm you know a big advocate for that even today and I've had to go through some outside resources and stuff too but again if you're not removing the root of it it's just going to grow back and like eventually it's inevitable to where the alcoholic or the addict he will drink or use again no matter what if you don't really get to that fundamental starting point then all the other things can be dealt with and developed once that problem's arrested, right? It's like I got a broken arm and now all of a sudden somebody's worried that like, you know, I have like maybe a cut on my hand. It's like, let's deal with the broken arm first. Let's deal with this where he's like bleeding out right here, this gunshot wound before we go worrying about, you know, some other things. And um it was kind of put in the cart before the horse. But anyways, I get going to that school. I got accepted and and I go up there and I'm given a brand new car. It's a little bit of money in my pocket. My grandfather gave me some money for graduating rehab and uh I'm on top of the world. The heat's off my back. I got the whole world ahead of me. I'm going to college now. I'm like, sick. Like, all right, I can do this. >> First place I stop is the liquor store. >> First place I stop is a dispensary >> and I get a fake ID and I get right back to it. I find somebody to buy it for me and I'm right back to getting high and I'm right back to getting loaded >> and uh and I'm just embracing that again. I'm off to the races. It was like you put a pause on it throughout that whole time and I and I could tell you could put a lie detector test on me that whole time that I was in therapy and in 10 months at that program and going through all the things that like I I do want to change. I do want to do this and like there was kind of again that Dr. Jackekal and Mr. High, but there was this like softening of that. >> But again, it was like as soon as I got >> a little taste of freedom again. >> Yeah. And as soon as I got substances back in my body, boom. It was like it it I didn't skip a beat. I was right back to it. all the morality, everything out the window. Mind snap shut, heartened again. I'm right back to it and I'm doing anything. I got a DUI my first week into college, dude, before classes even started. Yeah, dude. Like, I was there supposed to be at freshman orientation and I got a DUI on my way to freshman orientation cuz I was going to get loaded before I went so that I didn't have to be bored. And uh yeah, dad's bailing me out of jail. All of a sudden, now I'm faced with adult consequences and I'm I'm I'm in jail for the first time. I had to spend 3 days and >> yeah, go through that process. And so that started a progression. Um, and I made friends and I'm starting to like and now all of a sudden I'm like I get my phone back and I'm like it's all about all it's like I became like a hedonist almost like now I'm like playing catchup for all this restriction again. Same kind of dichotomy as when I was a kid. You put all these restraints and all these things on who I'm supposed to be and you finally give me some room. I'm like running from it. I'm going to find anything that gives me pleasure. I'm going to still fill that void. And so I'm like hooking up with girls and like trying to get in relationships and like I'm making friends, but then I'm like fighting again and I'm like drinking every day, going to all the parties and like I'm kind of like, you know, developing a reputation of like, "Oh, this guy's fun. He's cool to be around and stuff." And I'm kind of going to classes but not really. I wasn't there for school. I didn't care. I was just going to college. That was the thing psychology. Okay. >> The only reason I picked that is like maybe I can continue to learn about what the hell's wrong with me cuz there was some deep level of truth, right? Like >> I say all this stuff, but there was some little lurking still small voice idea in my head that like dude eventually like you're going to have to like deal with this. >> You're running and one day it's going to catch you >> kind of like I didn't fully understand that but I was like no I got this. I'm different right? But there was this still kind of thing of like maybe there is something deeper going on and maybe I can figure it out. But there was this pride of like I can figure it out. I can overcome this. I I I I can get out of this and I can think and manipulate my way out of this. Right. And um yeah, I end up withdrawing from my classes. I get in trouble cuz I'm not going to class. I'm more concerned about snowboarding cuz now I live right next to a mountain resort. We're in this sick little snowboarding town and I'm just like doing that full time and like >> hanging out with friends, partying. Like I'm I'm like trying to be the just just again the guy I'm doing. I start increasing my drug usage. I'm doing cocaine now. I'm like taking psychedelics. I'm like exploring, you know, and this is before fentanyl was kind of on the scene, so I was a lot safer to do it back then. Praise God for that, man. >> Yeah, huge. I was doing a lot of that. And um but anyways, and then it started to kind of catch up again. And then I started to have this shallow. >> There was some moments like in school where like I'm noticing all my other friends, they're finishing college. They're actually going to class. They're partying and then but they're able to like not drink Monday through Friday and then go and >> they're they're accomplishing things. They're getting into relationships and settling down. That guy proposed I'm like, "Oh, like everyone's kind of still passing me and I'm still back here like whoa." Like come on. I'm like, let's stay up till whatever. And I'm just like still delusionally chasing this like thrill and this feeling, this temporary satisfaction. And uh >> and I'm starting to notice a little bit of changes where like >> we're out pregaming before a party and by the time somebody's by the time everybody else is done with their first beer, >> I'm on my like third double shot oldfashioned like I'm I'm need to get I need to get there quick and I need to get there now. And I would always like miss the mark and kind of overdo it. And I'm like, you know, learning and, you know, um I I I watched and I listened a little bit to your last podcast that you had with your wife and I appreciate the vulnerability on like the uh the lust aspect, you know, and by then, mind you, God and everything went out the window. So, I have no morals. I'm like I'm I'm my own god at this point. But um throughout that like I'm also the same time my alcoholism and my addiction is like going I kind of make the analogy that like there's two trains relationally like with girls that was another thing that was going full steam ahead where like lust had crept in where it gave me that also sense of like ease comfort validation and this outlet that sex provided too and it was like two >> freight trains running down the same track into nowhere and um and I started to feel that all of a sudden and then I kind of had a reputation. It was a small school and like you know I wasn't like a you know I wasn't like a a ladies man. I wasn't like you know very whatever like I wasn't like a huge womanizer. I never like you know harmed anyone or did anything to a certain degree like >> but it was just driven by this like tactic of like manipulation and still like need me needing to have a transactional relationship to feel okay. And I never felt okay with myself >> unless I had someone or something to validate that and make me feel okay, right? Like if I had a pretty girl that I was talking to or hooking up with, if I had that, then I could feel okay about me. But you didn't have I didn't have that or I couldn't get, >> you know, substances like I had to face myself again. And that was too scary. And um >> so at this time you're you're in college, you're doing this thing. The addiction at that point like are you are you >> using and and drinking every day at that point too? >> I mean there was moments I'm smoking weed every day. Yeah. >> Um there was I don't think I drew a sober breath my entire time there, >> but it was still like manageable and acceptable. We're in Colorado. That was one of the first states that got legalized. Everybody's smoking. We But I'm doing it excessively. like I'm smoking round the clock. I got like a bong in my living room and I'm like >> and that was there was some and I gravitated towards guys who were doing that too like whatever you know >> and even guys who were like on the wrestling team and guys who were on the football team and stuff they could hang and whatever and I'm going to all the parties and there was things like that but I was just it it did become chronic and it did become like if I didn't have it like I would start to feel the withdrawal symptoms and it was you know it wasn't like and this is how I would rationalize and justify it. I'm not waking up in the morning and like taking a shot of whiskey >> just to feel okay, but I am like smoking throughout the day to get to the afternoon and then I am drinking a little bit or I am going out for some beers with some people and I am continuously I'm not doing cocaine every single day but if it's around I'm not going to buy it but if it's around I'll do it. It was this whole rationalization in my head to just like put >> it's always like it's it's one of those that's like yeah I'm doing all of these things >> but it's not like I'm doing these things to enjoy the things. It's more so like I'm living my life so that when 5:00 p.m. comes around or so that when 400 p.m. comes around then I can I can intake all this stuff and feel to a degree. This is like the middle ground. So you had like the early experimentation and progression. Now it's kind of taken off to where I don't have any restrictions and nobody really knows what's going on. Mind you, I'm lying to my parents and be like school's great, everything's good. I'm like they're not seeing any transcripts and stuff. They're like, "Oh, he must be doing good." And I'm like and I'm maintaining enough to where like I have a little bit of I have a job. I'm working at the mountain. and I'm like doing snowboard photography and instructing and like I think everything's going all right. I got a place to live. My rent's paid for. My rent was only like 500 bucks a month. It was sick, bro. I lived in this sick house >> uh with a couple other guys and uh anyways it it was uh it was manageable, right? >> I didn't see the problem with it. Like, you know, I love the line, you can tell an alcoholic, but you can't tell them much. Like, everybody else might have been able to see it, but you couldn't tell me anything. I was just like, dude, this rips. Like, >> tell an alcoholic, but you can't tell them much. Dude, I'm like, I got food, I got a job, a little bit of money, I can go out with my friends, and I can drink how I want and do what I want and there's nobody telling me I can't, right? But again, >> I think I got another like DUI, like a well, it wasn't a DUI, it was like an underage drinking and driving kind of they're different, but it's the same thing. I got caught drinking while I was driving. Again, I didn't go to jail, but I had to go to the jail. Um, and they let me out. I didn't get like convicted of that, but it was on my record, and I lost uh my probation. I violated my probation for my first DUI. So, it ended up the DUI stuck and now I had to face the consequences of that. I got my license removed and I was like, whoa. So, there's another consequence, right? And um car got taken away. My dad was like, you're not having a car anymore. They my dad flew up there, bailed me out, and then took the car and drove back home. >> And um >> all the while this is just like kind of gaining momentum. And I'm not in school. I withdrew. I'm not I'm not a student anymore. I'm hanging around all the students, but I'm not a student. And uh >> yeah, I started to become unmanageable again and I start hurting relationships. I start getting like tense again. And it starts to happen while I'm getting loaded. And that's the difference is where like it was at first this is like the blending period of where it was like there was Hunter when he was like managing and sober and happy drunk and I can hang out and function and now all of a sudden like when Hunter gets drunk he's like >> you know getting sad or he's getting angry or now all of a sudden I'm like you know kind of a loose cannon and now all of a sudden people are like whoa like you're doing a little bit too much. like that guy's crazy, whatever. And I don't know, it started there was some parallel shift >> and I'm like >> I'm like being, you know, just careless with my relationships, like >> just be with a girl for a while, have a relationship with her, and then I feel like she starts to get committed and like, "Oh, so like do you want to take things more serious and further?" And I just I'm like, "Nope, not really." And I'll pull the rip cord and run and I start like cutting relationships off. And I had this ability, I think, because of the upbringing as a military kid >> where I could rip roots out, block and change and just compartmentalize and move on and not feel affected by it and just kind of like be a sociopath. Like it was weird and uh cuz that's what happened a lot growing up like I could just keep you at an arms distance. But as soon as they're had this fear of commitment and this fear of like getting too close cuz I didn't want to get hurt. I thought inevitably someone's going to move away and I went through that before and I don't want to get close cuz if if you do it's going to hurt. And >> so that's how my relationship started to turn. And I'm like starting to snap on my friends a little bit more. I'm like saying hurtful crap and like they're having to like take me out of the bar. I'm starting to fight when we go out and they're like, "Hunter, like dude, we're just trying to chill, bro. Like what are you doing?" And like it slowly started to progress. And then um >> yeah, it got pretty gnarly. And then uh I kind of burned some bridges with some close friends of mine. And there were still some people that were like, "Dude, like I don't know what's going on." But like even even the kids that I was that were drinking a lot and smoking a lot that were like living my lifestyle. Even when those people like like the Daily Drinkers and the Barflies look at you and say, "Dude, your drinking's out of control." Some you got a problem. Like something's up. Yeah. And uh when even those guys are like, "Whoa, you're kind of taking it a little too far, bud." Um >> Yeah. And then COVID happens. M >> so >> 2020 >> yeah 2020 happens my school shuts down co was it everybody else hated co bro co was the best for an alcoholic dude like that was like the breeding ground to where it's like now I don't have to go to work I'm getting a little check in the mail I can just isolate at home and drink how I want to drink and hang out like the liquor stores and stuff are still open like it was just like kind of perfect where I could just like continue to live this and I did that for a while and uh >> then it kind of got boring everybody left everybody went back home like during the pandemic and now this town was like really empty and there wasn't any like parties and stuff going on and it was just kind of slow and I was like huh and so I started cooking a lot at home and I'd been working in a little bit in the restaurant industry as like some side gigs working at a cafe and like getting really kind of like doing that cooking for friends and stuff. I'd always kind of had a knack for it and uh my dad used to cook a lot growing up and so that was kind of like maybe a weird way of trying to recreate that. And uh >> but I I start watching culinary like shows and TVs and I'm immersing myself into it. I'm cooking for friends. I'm trying things at home because everything's locked down. Restaurants are closed and whatever. >> And I get this like urge to be like, "Dude, I want to do this." And it was finally something that I was like passionate about. I was like, "This could be the ticket." Cuz I couldn't find anything that I like to do. >> I couldn't find anything that I was like, "I'm not a career guy. I can't sit behind a desk. I can't be a snowboard instructor forever. It only happens in the winter. Like >> this could be the thing. >> Yeah. And so and then I started watching like Anthony Bourdain and I'm watching Gordon Ramsay and I'm like these guys are sick, bro. Like they got tattoos and they're freaking like cussing and like you know drinking wine and hanging out. They're kind of edgy and like I was like dude that's kind of sick. Like I could do that. It was kind of punk rock a little bit. And uh so I like told my parents and they were like okay like whatever you want to do. and like um they tried to support me in that, but there was kind of this lurking like, "Oh, I hope Hunter's like okay." But they weren't around me enough to see what was going on so I could kind of put the facade up long enough. Anyways, flash forward, I get accepted to this culinary school in Boulder, Colorado, which is like four hours south of where I live there. >> And uh they're doing they're the one of the first schools that opened back up with these small blocks of like six students at a time for their blocks. Like they were just trying to make it work to pay to like get tuition in. And uh I got accepted and I moved down there, packed up everything and I just left everybody and everybody's like, "You're leaving." And I was like, "Yeah, bro. Out." And I just left my life there >> and that's what I'm good at. Pop smoke, ripped my roots out. There was a lot of embarrassing things that I did. The DUI, all that stuff's behind me. I had this delusion that it must be the place. It must be this town. It must be these people. Like, yeah, this just isn't for me. >> I can go run the Yeah, it's it's here. This is the problem, right? And of course, >> everywhere you go, you take you with you. I took me with me. And um so I settled down and yeah, I end up in Boulder and that's how I got my entry into like the restaurant industry >> down there. Sorry that was a big rant, but no. So you you get into the restaurant industry, you're working in that. I mean, you've talked about it before >> um on on some other podcasts that you've been on too, but I mean um you know that industry >> is hard to not be it's just it's everywhere, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. It depends. It's everywhere and it's like I don't know the more I I had the grace so I I got I got accepted into this culinary school. >> Mhm. >> And uh I won't share the details of it doesn't really matter but I got I got into some trouble and I got reported I got into a conflict with somebody and I got uh they made a a complaint to the police department and that person found out that I was applied to this culinary school and accepted and starting in the semester. I think it was like on my social media or something. >> Yeah. >> And uh I was not very nice to that person and uh and that was like one of my drinking spells where I just like said something, threatened somebody, whatever. I don't know. I was like, you know, out there and they ended up calling the culinary school and had like receipts and kind of like were like, "Hey, this kid that's about to come like he, you know, was like this kid's kind of a problem." and they event and like the police just I didn't do anything like illegal per se to where I could get arrested, but it was just kind of like whoa, dude. This kid is like, you know what I mean? And uh >> and so they go to the school and then the school like looks at this stuff and the fact that like even the police there was a report and all this stuff, they're like, "Oh." And they saw my DUI and they're like, "We don't want this kid." And so they >> they as soon as they accepted me, they also sent me an email a couple months later after that incident that yeah, we actually like to revoke our scholarship and our acceptance. And I already moved there and I was like, so they like asked me not to come and I didn't even get to start at that school. >> And I was like, dude, what am I going to do? And uh this is weird like where >> I don't know if it was God or I still ask myself this or just coincidence, but this is crazy. I moved into this apartment, nice little apartment complex in Boulder. Well, right outside Boulder >> and there's this family that lives across the street and I have a dog at this point >> and he's my freaking Bernie Mountain dog and I'm I'm seeing them at the dog park and saying hi and they're my neighbors and I'm like a friendly neighborly guy, whatever. I'm like I'm also trying to reset. I'm like fresh start. I'm not like I'm going to try to pursue this and I'm like getting my passion back a little bit. So my drinking is like not as crazy. I kind of dialed it back a little. >> Um and I end up babysitting. They have like two young little kids and like you know through all this and stuff I've always been really good with kids. I love kids. It like reminds me of like me as a kid and I was always like >> just really good with kids. I love dude hanging around them. They're fun. They're like innocent. They don't try to, you know, lie to you or like whatever. And I just I've always had that. So, I was always really good and they saw how good I was with their kids cuz they'd come to the dog park and want to pet my dog and I'd be like, "Oh, let's go." And I'm just I'm like the fun uncle that like, you know, like whatever. And uh >> and they worked a lot and they asked me if I could babysit. And I was like, "Yeah, I'll babysit." And they kind of paid me pretty well. So, I started doing that and watching the kiddos and like playing Legos and watch, you know, doing whatever with them. And the dad just so happened to be a general manager at this extremely nice restaurant in downtown Boulder. And I got close with him and I told him my story, told him a little bit, kind of removed some of the details obviously and told him, "Yeah, I'm here to like pursue culinary, but I don't know what direction I think I'm going to apply to this." And he had like already learned me. His kids love me. He sees this version of me, you know, >> freaking Dr. Jackekal. He's like, "Oh, this guy's great. Like, whatever. I'll get you a stage um with the chef. Yeah. For those you don't know, a stage is just a fancy French word for a try out. It's like an interview, like a paid interview where you come in, you work a shift for cash and the chef sees your skills and he sees what you got and they decide if they want to hire you or not. >> And uh so he gets me this stage and I'm like, "No way. It's my ticket. I'm in." And I go and I meet the chef and I'm like enthralled with the restaurant industry, dude. I'm just like a curious. >> I'm like passionate and just like I'm green. I know I don't know anything and I'm like I just want to learn. I talk to the chef. He sees how green and excited I am. >> Yeah. >> And he makes the decision to want to like take me under his wing and start training me and I get hired and that starts my entry into there. Now, um the restaurant industry has its, you know, reputation for, you know, just drugs and like drinking and stuff like yes. Is that there? 100%. But like the more professional kitchens that you go to, it's not like in your face. It's not like you're at Chili's and all the line cooks are like doing blow behind there. like, you know, it's not like if it's a proper, you know, serious kitchen, like there's a standard and like, you know, it's very, it's not like in your face, but >> after you clock out and like, you know, we all go out and drink and hang out. Like it's it's kind of a undertone of like >> something. It's not as blatant and in your face. Like when you're on the clock, like you need to have your crap together cuz like it's a nice restaurant. We have like reviews and expectations to hold to. There's a standard of excellence here. And I could, for some reason, when a chef like talked to me in a way that was like authoritative and militant, like >> I was like, I'm down. And it's like all of a sudden that like thing that my dad tried to instill in me forever like lined up here cuz it was something that I loved and I just ran with it. And I found something that I loved and I just immersed myself in it. I started as like a dishwasher and like a prep cook and I was just learning from the beginning and the chef >> graciously took me under his wing and just started teaching me and um that was my entry point. Um, all the while I kind of have this back burner, but I was able to. I think the restaurant industry saved me, I think. Um, or maybe prolonged me or postponed the the rock bottom and the inevitable crash that happened, >> but it gave me enough passion and something to put my love and care into to where like I could >> like like drinking kind of took a back burner. I was able to like >> just put this mess just right over here. It wasn't like I couldn't I didn't sober up, don't get me wrong, completely, but like I could kind of like shrink it and put it on the shelf. and I had this and I was like, "This is exciting and new and fun and I was good at it and I learned about it and it was like >> it's fascinating to me and I just fell in love with it and that was like my entry point." >> And so then from there you're you're in this new job, you're doing this thing. Let's let's kind of go to I mean that that progresses. You move on to a couple different restaurants, right? And um kind of begin a career in the culinary world and all these kind of things. I mean what what is this like? It it all culminates to this moment. Yeah. >> Right. And so let's let's talk about that moment a little bit. >> Yeah, let's button it up. I know I can talk kind of forever. I don't want to rant about it, but I don't get to talk about this much, but um yeah, >> I love hearing about it. Seriously, I do. >> Um >> yeah, it's weird like in the recovery community, it's like I all I and I and I'm even guilty of doing it right now, but it's a big part of my life and my story. It was like that was my you know, your podcast is called Pivot or Die. >> Pivot or Die. >> And you asked me before this like what are the three biggest pivots I ever had in my life? I think I've already gone through the first one where it's like kind of having some semblance of God growing up and structure and like maybe some, you know, level of potential. And that was my first pivot was like away from that, giving it the middle finger and just pivoting being like, "Yeah, that's not for me. I'm going to go this way and and pivoting into this path." And uh >> but anyways, I'm able to compartmentalize. I worked my way up over the course of like a year and some change. And uh I'm I'm moving very quickly. Like I'm going home and like if I'm on the line, I'm like studying and then when I leave and I clock out, I'm going home and I'm watching videos and reading culinary books. I'm like calling my chef, taking notes and I'm like I'm going home and I'm redoing it 100 times. Like I'm just trying to like this is all I thought about. This is all I did. And it was like >> I'm working 12-hour shifts. I go home. I work on it for two more hours. I go to bed. I wake up and I get into the restaurant at 6:00 a.m. again. And I'm like back in it. It's like all I wanted. >> And um and I worked my way up and I got promoted to like being able to be on the line. Now all of a sudden I'm handling food. I'm cooking. I'm not I'm taking inventory. And I start to kind of like bypass a lot of the older guys and people that have been there for a long time, the line cooks and stuff, just cuz I was green and teachable. And I was like, "Chef, whatever you want me to do, I'll do it." Like, and I just >> ran with it. And I was like, >> I was good at it. And um this is where my brain works perfectly in chaos cuz a kitchen is nightmare and chaotic and but it's like a beautiful welloiled machine when it's done right and under a good, you know, leader. And anyways, um I work my way up and all of a sudden like you know CO starts it's still happening there but they're kind of opening back up again. So the restaurant scene is going through a lot of different changes and stuff but they end up forming a position for me where I'm kind of like a floating sue kitchen manager but not really a manager. I'm not like attached to one restaurant, but they essentially >> I'm like uh kind of like a a maintenance like mechanic guy that they're sending me like I have enough skills and enough for you can put me in any restaurant and I'm going to learn quick thrive and I can help kind of be the W I was like the WD40. That's like what my chef called me all the time. He's like he's like you're the oil man. I need you. And like and I could just adapt and shift and it wasn't I wasn't great. I wasn't an executive chef yet. I wasn't like in a sue like concrete like position where I was like honing on to like my craft but I was good enough. >> Damn. >> Yeah. And so that was my position they made. So I had they had four I worked for a restaurant federation and they had four or five different restaurants and then they started to float me. So it was like one day I'm working at this place and then another day they're like, "Hey, we got 82 bookings. Somebody called out sick and we need somebody to cover." They could send me and know that it was going to be okay. And I would go there and be like, "Bet." And I would learn the menu really quickly and I would like hop in and the the head chef would just have me come on and he would give me things and I got to learn all this stuff and I'm like having a blast. So much fun. Yeah, dude. And it was sick. All the while behind the scenes after work, I'm like still going out and partying and I'm drinking and I'm like, you know, and not eating as much. I'm losing weight a little bit. I'm doing aderall and cocaine sometimes just to stay >> at the threshold, you know, of like how much work is in there, too. And >> um, >> you know, cocaine's gnarly because it doesn't last that long and it's very like, you know, grimy. You don't know where it comes from, but Adderall, it's a prescription. So, I got on that pretty quickly where it was like take one pill and I'm good for like the day. And um so I started using, you know, substances like that all while I'm pouring liquor on it and smoking in between and and it's just I'm my engine's kind of burning out and I'm feeling the physical repercussions of like the sleepless nights and all the things like that. And uh >> all the while still having some weird relationship dichotoies, but it's not as dramatic. And um >> anyways, long story short, I we end up having a night one night and um it was a really good night. I think we had like a a critic come in or like a a review or something that happened, but we did really good as this restaurant. It was where I started. And uh we all we went out to go celebrate. And um and I ended up going out to this bar right down the street from the restaurant that I worked at. >> I wasn't in my full chef whites, but we had hats just like this that had the restaurant logo on it that we wore. It was like a flat brim just like this. And I kept that hat on and I went to this bar and I end up >> drinking like I always drink. and I end up getting into a conf confrontation and I get into I don't remember the details. I drank a lot and I it was very blurry. Um but long story short, I got asked to leave and I made a scene and they had to pull me out and uh there's like CCTV footage. I wish I had it, but it's somewhere of me like yelling at a bartender and like just just being a mess. Dude, it's embarrassing. And uh and the owner of that bar knew the owner of the restaurant federation that I worked under and he saw my hat and he was like, "You work at at West End, don't you?" And I was like, >> "No." I was like, "No, I don't work there actually. I just like the food." Cuz I knew immediately. I'm like I kind of had this moment where like, "Oh, I'm making an ass out of myself. Like they're going to I'm going to get in trouble." And anyway, so I left. It kind of blows over. Everyone at the restaurant, they're like, "We're not saying anything, Hunter." Like whatever. And um a couple days later, the owner and the chef that originally trained me, >> the new chef that I was working under and the owner of the restaurant pull me into the office and they're like, "We need to talk." And it gets brought to light. My chefs told me, they're like, "Hunter, we don't want to fire you, but this has gone kind of over our heads to where, >> you know, it's gone to the owner and the board and like we got to make a decision. We got to let you go. Like we can't have this." like if it was if it just came to us or something like we'd be able to work it out, get you some help, whatever. But like Hunter, we can't this isn't >> we can't justify this. And >> and it was cool. Like my my head the original chef that trained me, he didn't even have to be there. He wasn't even asked to be there, but he heard what was going on and he asked to come be there for the conversation and like >> it was just devastating. It was the first thing I ever like loved and was good at >> and I lost it because of my drinking. >> Yeah. >> And I uh Yeah. Within a week, it's crazy. I'm like working this dream job, absolutely loving life, and like things are going okay for the first time for a little bit. In one week, I lose that job, and I get a part-time job. Uh, well, actually, I wrecked my car in between that. I drive drunk one night. Don't know how I didn't get a DUI, crashed my car, lost my car, and I I'm working a part-time job at a liquor store >> because they give a discount. And that's like what my life swiftly became really quickly. >> Wow. >> All the while I'm justifying it. All the while I'm like >> rationalize it and uh it was devastating and I had like an identity crisis and I was just really depressed. >> Yeah. >> And I was really just like embarrassed and I was really just sad, you know, and uh >> so that was kind of like the peak. And um >> I do that for a while and then I end up getting fired from there cuz I got into a conflict with a customer. I'm drinking at work now. Now all of a sudden I don't care. I'm like I lost my dream >> and like now I'm drinking it. Now it's like everyday drinking. Now it's like I'm drinking alone. I'm drinking in the mornings. I'm drinking at night to go to sleep. I'm like throwing substances on in between. Like it was just it's turned into this like sixmonth blur of just like just living to drink pretty much. Like it just it becomes so like and then I'm withdrawing now. All of a sudden I'm getting the shakes. My body's like dependent on it and I can't sleep, function, eat, whatever. And it's just it's it's bad. My mom comes to visit me. She was kind of worried about what was going on. And she came up to visit me and and uh we ended up going out. We were supposed to have like one beer and go out and hang out and just catch up. And uh I ended up blacking out in front of my mom and like she had to carry me out of the bar and I ended up falling and like it was just really bad. I like I woke up in my own urine and like it was bad and um >> and she had to go home and she was like Hunter like you got to take care of yourself like I don't know what's going on but like this isn't okay. >> And she was starting to get concerned you know obviously and um >> yeah and and I I I managed that for like better part of six months. Um, I ended up getting into a another runin with the police. I got arrested for like a a road rage incident because all the while I'm like I'm >> disheveled, getting pent up, >> angry. It's the the spring is tightening again. I don't have an outlet. I don't have anything to put it into. And I'm just pouring liquor on it and pouring, you know, relationships and sex on just trying to figure out what this is and like my life. And uh, and I remember I was like in my car. This is before I crashed it. kind of bounced around a little, but it was right before I crashed my car. I got into this road rage incident where I think I cut someone off on the freeway because they were going too slow, something like that. And they ended up following me home and I had been drinking a little bit already that day. And uh I wasn't like blacked out or anything, but I was just on edge and I just lost my job. And I remember they pulled up to me. They're like, "What are you doing? You just like mad cuz I just cut them off and like freaking you know, whatever." And then I I lose my lid, bro. I like threaten them and I just snap again and I'm like I'm like threatening them this, this, and that. And uh I got arrested. They end up calling the cops cuz they were like, "Whoa." And then I got arrested for a felony menacing. I don't have a felony on my record cuz dad paid for the lawyer. Again, dad monetarily bailing me out and coming to the rescue and enabling me once again. Um but I got arrested for a felony harassment, menacing, and uh menacing with a simulated weapon charge. And that's a big deal. And if that went to court, um I was facing >> simulated weapon. What does that mean? Yeah. It means it was something that could have been portrayed as like a like a deadly weapon. U it was a paintball gun. >> You had a paintball gun. >> Yeah. I had this sick little paintball gun that I had, dude. And it was in the backseat of my car and I just I just remember looking around. I was going to throw something at this guy and I just grabbed this paintball gun and I was like, I'll freaking shoot. Dude, I freaked out on him and I like pointed a paintball gun at this guy and he was like, "What the hell?" And like called the cops on me cuz I was just a psycho. And so they saw that and they're like, "Yeah, dude. You like brandished a freaking thing at somebody if I shot him in the face with a paintball gun." Like, that's still gnarly. Anyways, it's embarrassing when I tell that story. I've never done this publicly, but >> hi, Mom. >> There it is. There you go. Thank you for Thank you for sharing. Thank you for the honesty cuz it it helps. It's going to help somebody out there. That's the whole point. >> Yeah. >> So, I mean, you you get this you get this whole thing. You have this running with the cops. You're like doing this. You're going for six months. I mean, what is that breaking point? What is that like that catalyst for for you to go >> things need to change and I need to be different? >> Let's get into it. The solution and and um >> Yeah. >> And I mean I really think this is this is the point again that's that's building building building >> to where we get to this big pivot right where it's like oh my gosh and like in in your sense literally it's like >> I need to pivot or die right% like these are the two this is the crossroads. >> Yeah. So >> um I'll fast forward to this last part. Um, I get out of that charge. I I was facing five years. I got out of it on probation. I had to take an anger management course and somehow I lied and manipulated my way out of it to where I didn't point to God whatever. And I ended up getting out of that by the grace of God. Crashed my car, got fired from this job. Everything in my life up to this point, I'm like, I can't do anything. I call my mom and dad and I'm like, can I come home? And I'm like, I'm tired. I had like a little moment of clarity. And my mom and dad were like, yeah, you can come home. that's okay. Like they were just they just wanted to see me safe cuz like they didn't know where I was at and like they're seeing charges come up and bailing me out of jail, paying for lawyers. They're like, "Dude, yes, like come home and uh like let's get you some help, whatever that looks like." So, I go home. >> I like had this last Hail Mary kind of thought where I was like, "Maybe I'll just join the military and do what my family did so I can get some structure in my life." So, I kind of made a pivot to where I was going to go join the Marine Corps. A little sidebar, I went through the whole like deal, almost went to MEPS. Um, my recruiter had a brother who was an addict and while I was going through the training and the like paperwork process, my recruiter started to see all the red flags in me. >> Pulled me aside one day and talked to my dad and was just like, "Hey, I think this kid has like a drinking problem." And he told me candidly. He's like, "Hunter, if you think the Marine Corps is going to fix your drinking problem, buddy." He was like, "I think you need to get some help." And I was like, and thank God that I think that these are moments where like God like put like like I didn't when I crashed the car, I didn't die. Like there was all these things. There's another story, too. I went home and I wrapped my mom's car around a telephone pole and ruined Christmas. My family starting to see it all. I'm at Thanksgiving, blacked out. There's just so many, you know, things. This is why like when I talk in recovery, I try not to get into the war stories cuz it doesn't matter. But like this is >> this is this is getting this is this is all context >> for then this big pivot that happens and the dude that's sitting beside me right now. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's Yeah. >> This is who I am. you know, this is what happened. And it's it's gnarly and uh it's sad. It's tragic, but there's a finish line. It's why I'm here. But um anyways, so this recruiter tells me this. I go to rehab cuz he's like, "You need to get some help." So my dad's like, "Hey, we can get you in treatment." And I go to treatment in Florida. >> And uh I drink the whole time I'm there. >> Cuz I still don't understand. But then this is the first time alcoholism has been introduced to me. This is the first time people are sitting across from me where this place is designed for sobriety instead of like therapy and all these external things. It's like, "Hey, man." >> And I'm starting to get exposed to truth. I'm starting to get exposed to like uh 12step programs, and um I'm starting to get exposed to like people trying to explain to me like how I drink, why I drink. I'm going to meetings. I'm listening to people and I'm silently drunk in the back of the meeting, but I'm like listening and I'm kind of relating or I was like, "Oh, I drank like that. >> I felt like that." And this is where I start to learn the vernacular, but it's not any there's no more like >> me trying to have an angle. >> Yeah. But yet and still I wasn't ready. Anytime that it's an external situation where my parents or my family or people put me in a situation where you need to do this or you need to get sober, it can't get through my mind. Like you again, you can tell an alcoholic you can't tell them much. It's like it has to you cannot manufacture or surrender for somebody. Like it has to come from within. And still even at this point, my first stint in rehab, it's external. My parents want me to go there. I need to do this so that I can maybe go to the milit. I'm just trying to like find a means to an end to this goal. Not really realizing the gravity of the problem. >> So I go there. I learned a little bit of the fundamentals. I'm starting to kind of understand it. I get an understanding now. I know the truth. >> And now I'm no longer afforded the luxury of ignorance. I know what alcoholism is. I know that I have a problem. And I got into some trouble there. And I'll spare you the details. And I got into, you know, drank the whole time that I was there. Come home drinking again. And my parents finally kicked me out. And so, >> long story short, I get kicked out. Dad's done with me. Mom's still trying to help me. My grandfather gets involved. Thanksgiving comes around. I black out. Didn't show up. ended up getting, you know, what there was just so much stuff. >> And so there was one last Hail Mary that that chef that originally fired me, he wrote me a letter of recommendation. I called him one day cuz I didn't feel like I had anybody else to call. My parents kicked me out. I didn't have anywhere to go. I was trying to I was working at some local nice restaurant in this town that we lived at and I felt like it was beneath me. >> And so I called my chef. I'm like, I don't know what to do. And he's like, "All right, man. Tell you what, there's a culinary school in California that I think you should check out. I know one of the chefs up there. whatever. And he writes me this letter of recommendation. Um, and it's the Culinary Institute of America. It's like the Harvard of Culinary Schools. >> And he's like, "You should try that." And so I was like, "Okay, bet." So now I have another thing. And I'm like, "All right, screw the Marine Corp. I'm going to do this. I'm going to go back and get my dream back. It's going to be like a freaking comeback story." >> What year? What year is this just for timeline? >> 2021, 2022. >> 2022, something like that. Yeah. Um, >> yeah, I think so. It's a blur. There's a lot of it where it's like, yeah. Um, >> so you're you get this letter of recommendation. >> I'm going to go do this thing. You get accepted. >> Yep. I get accepted. I end up going to the school and for the first time in my life. So I'd had all these other bottoms. This is a big thing I like to tell people. It's like I had all these external bottoms. Crash cars, DUIs, getting arrested, going to jail, mom crying, dad y, like all these things. if it's an external thing again like nothing externally can fix the problem of why I'm drinking and give me that satisfaction and also when I'm in the middle of that when I'm latched on to this delusion nothing externally can make me change my mind or cause me to recover >> and so for the first time I go out and I get to the culinary school I get accepted mom helps me but they're like my parents are like this is your last shot go like we we don't want anything you're a mess you're drinking at home and like there was a lot of crap that I did at home and they're like dude get out like go do your the military's paying for it, but other than that, like we're not helping you with anything. And I was just like, all right. And this was my thing. And I, for the first time in my life, I admitted I was on the plane and I was like, I need to get sober >> and I need to be sober. >> And I knew that I had a problem. I had finally accepted that and seen the chaos that it had drawn in my life and just the lack of relationships and structure and just my life was going nowhere fast. And um, >> so I white knuckle it. I get to the school and I'm nervous. I'm shaking. My body's starting to withdraw. I'm sweating. I'm freaking I can't sleep. It's like my bo like my body is literally like starting to go into like precipitative withdrawals and um and I'm back to school and I'm like I just got to get through this through orientation and then I start and uh and just like that like all of a sudden my mind goes right back to where it's like well one drink won't hurt and then I go right to a liquor store and I'm back off again and uh I made it a couple weeks uh into school and um finally it all catches up to me. It was like a ton of bricks. I remember where I was sitting. I was sitting in my bed. >> And I remember like finally like I tried to get sober. I was trying to white knuckle it. I was going like one two days slip. One two days slip going to class. I'm like at the Harvard of culinary schools. It's beautiful campus. But all the while like everything that I'd ever been through and experienced finally like caught up to me. There's this line in Romans where Paul talks about like, you know, these people who lived these like abominable lives and things like were against God and God finally gave them to themselves like where he gave them the desires of their heart >> where it's like he finally like allowed them to reach the end of themselves essentially saying okay thy will be done >> and I feel like this was the moment where God finally you said you know what like here this is what you want >> take it yeah >> and uh >> and I had no semblance of God no belief system no none of that and uh But I look back now and I see that this was the point where all the guilt, the shame, the remorse, the regret. Because when you're out there and you're drinking and you're running and gunning and you're like in the thick of it, you can't see it. It's like you got blinders on and you're just like tunnel vision and like I'm just compartmentalizing going through and I'm just like from one thing to the next. It's just chaos. It's like a freight train rolling leaving wreckage behind it. But in this moment, >> in this moment, everything caught up and it was like I'm having flashbacks of like from when I was a kid and like sleepless nights and like all the pain and the guilt and the remorse and the shame >> just comes hit me like a freight train and I feel it and it was just I just remember it feeling dark and hollow and lonely where I was just like, >> "Oh, you're doomed." Like it was this weird sense of impending doom >> and I knew it was a matter of time. And meanwhile, I have restaurant experience a little bit. So like I'm at the school and I'm top of my class because it's basic. So we're going through knife skills s like we're going through RS and stocks and like you know very basic like mincing and cuts and this is what we're going to have to do and like so I was kind of like I knew enough of this so like I could get through it. So I looked like I was doing good but like inside I'm dying. I'm dying and this all hits me. I remember and I just remember the first time I never struggled with like major depression or like self harm or anything, but I remember um the thought of suicide came in where it was like I finally caught up to the point of where I knew there was no return and that this life that I was living wasn't going to work for me anymore and that I needed to get help. But I also knew the same truth that like I can't stop. >> M >> cuz I just tried to get sober and I wanted to be sober. And there was this like final internal desire of like wanting to actually like get sober and do better with my life, but I couldn't do it on my own. And I tried >> and I'd gone to therapy. I did the whole like rehab stint. I'd done everything. I felt like I had tried all this stuff, but I had never it never hit it never went from my head to my heart and hit this point of internal surrender. And I finally stopped. And I um and so when left with that jumping off point, this fork in the road of like one was to go on to the bitter end, >> pivot or die. >> Pivot or die. And it's like pivot or kill yourself. Like that was like where my head was at cuz there's no other options. I don't have any coping skills. I don't have any community. I don't have any God. I don't have any fellowship. I don't even have any family anymore. My parents are like hearing me saying, "I want to quit." And they're like, "Well, if you quit, go get a tent. You can go live on the street. We're done with you." And it was gnarly, dude. They were just fed up. >> Rightfully so, too. Um because of all that I put them through. And and so I remember going to the guidance counselor at the school and I remember one of the last emails my dad sent to me was just a list of treatment centers in California that took my insurance and I remember the last email that my mom wrote to me when I told her that I was going to drop out of school and go get some help. Um she sent me my birth certificate, my passport, my social security card, my health records, my transcript. She sent me all of my information and she sent me this long paragraph. My parents had joined this family group of support for alcoholics. And uh I remember in the last line of this email, it says, you know, I love you. This has nothing to do with my love for you, but I can't do this anymore. You know, it's killing me and your father, and I'm writing this in an email with you or to you because I don't want to waste a stamp on you. Good luck with your life. And that was the last email that I got from her and my dad. And I remember being there, and it was like done. Broke contact, blocked me on everything. It was like finally I I was faced with the fact that I had no other avenues, no other options. My walls, it's like that scene in Star Wars when they're in the trash compactor and it was finally like about to touch and I'm right in the middle of it. >> And I made that phone call. I was sitting in there and I called this treatment center >> in Costa Mesa, California. And I just I just looked at this list and I was like this one. It was first number that popped up and I was like I called them. I I was just start crying and I'm like I need some help. I can't do this on my whatever you know the whole >> thing and they were like hey we can get you on a plane tomorrow and um I withdrew from my classes. I left the Culinary Institute of America and everyone was like you're leaving like what's going on? You're like dude what? And I was like I got to go. I was like something in me was like I need help and I can't do it here. I I can't run anymore. I got tired of running and I was just like I can't. and I left and I remember I got there and uh that's when it finally started to change >> and um that was my entry point into recovery and into finally like coming to understanding and grips with the life that I've had been living it and uh and it was an ugly process. It wasn't an overnight now I'm sober. I got into treatment like dude it was like I relapsed four or five times throughout that whole process. The suicidal thoughts got bigger and bigger. I'm going to like yoga classes and now all of a sudden I'm going to like self-help programs. I mean, I'm being introduced to this whole recovery world in space of like, you know, you know, self-help >> things of like what I've tried before and none of it's sticking. None of it's working. And I'm doing all the classes I desperately want to be sober. I'm going to therapy and I'm like, "Please help me." And I keep drinking and I keep telling all myself like I'm not sneaking it anymore. I'm like going to the liquor store, coming back drunk to my counselor being like, "Take this away from me. Like, put me under lock and key. I don't care. like I can't stop. >> And um I ended up like, you know, getting pretty spiralled out. And uh I ended up going to a psych ward uh college hospital just to just to decompress because I was just telling them I'm scared and like I I want to take my own life. I don't think I'm going to do it, but it's just I can't get it out of my head and I can't stop drinking. It's just this one or the other. It was like those are the two ideas in my head. Get loaded. But getting loaded was no longer getting working for me. >> Yeah. that same ease and comfort and and peace and you know satisfaction or feeling okay that it used to bring. >> I remember the moment where it was like I had gotten drunk again >> and I was physically drunk like I was still like st like I was physically like you know my blood alcohol level was way over and like I was drunk and I was waiting for it to like turn my brain off >> and it didn't turn my brain off anymore. It was like I was physically drunk, but my mind was still going and racing and and panicking and it was just still the slideshow. Like it wouldn't shut off anymore. And I was like, that was a scary place to be where it's like now this thing that I've built my life of my solution on isn't working for me for me anymore. I can't live like this. And it was like terrifying where it's like the one thing that I've like put so much stock and like faith and like >> everything into um >> didn't work. And uh >> yeah, and it hit it hit a point where um my final breaking point was I was in that treatment center. I'd been in there for like 90 days, relapsed so many times, I felt like it wasn't working. But I had gone to enough meetings where people started to introduce the God idea. >> And uh when I say the God idea, like I had I was a very like I had a lot of that church hurt. I feel like a lot of people who say church hurt aren't really hurt by the church, but they just don't like, >> you know, religious people or maybe have a misconception or something. There are some genuine things out there and tragedies and things that take place. But uh I think it's missing the forests for the trees in a lot of ways. But anyways, I had a lot of these conceptions and arrogance and like understandings of what I thought faith in God was. Um especially with Christianity. And so but I go to these meetings and they're talking about you need to get a higher power. You need to pray. You need to come to a conception of God. And I'm like close-minded to all that. But I reached that point where I was going to take my own life. And I remember I was in a the bedroom where I lived at at the sober living. And um I had a roommate, but he graduated and left, so it was just me that night. And it was like my opportunity. I'd been obsessing about how I was going to do it. And I remember I uh I closed the door when I I did meds and I went to bed and everybody was down for the night. I closed the door. I locked the door. I boarded it up with a chair. And um for the first time, I was going to do it. And I remember I wrote I wrote a letter to my parents saying it's not their fault, you know, and I wrote like a note and um and I I got a belt and I remember sitting there just sobbing knowing that I couldn't do this anymore. And then I remember these thoughts of like these meetings that I was going to and people saying, "You need to find a God. You need to pray. You need to like" And it was the one thing that I had never tried. >> And I it was the first time I think ever in my life that I was honest with myself. I think this is the whole point is honesty where I finally like the delusion kind of wore off, the scales fell for my eyes, whatever you want to call it. Moment of clarity to where I was honest and I was like, "Hunter, you have never given this a fair shake. You have never really bought into this. You've never actually prayed. You've never act you've just played the game your whole life. You're a fraud. >> Like, >> what have you got to lose? And if you do it and it doesn't work, >> then you can kill yourself." But there was this last little thing in me that's like I actually haven't ever tried this before. >> And I remember like saying, "Okay." And I remember I hit my knees and I remember I was living out of a suitcase and I like unpacked it and you know how like in the bottom of some suitcases there's like a little secret zipper like compartment thing. >> I remember I looked over I just glanced over the room. I was like kind of looking around. I was like really is this is where I'm going to freaking die? And I was kind of like having a little existential like thing. And I remember sitting there and I looked at my suitcase and there was a lump that I didn't notice on the bottom of my suitcase. And I remember looking at it and I was like for some reason I was like what is that? And I I got up I was like and I'm like crying and I like got up and I walk over and I unzip it and when I told you when I was 17 when I was uh I did that intervention my parents did and my youth pastor was there. My youth pastor gave me this Bible >> my mom had packed that Bible >> in the suitcase and I opened it and there was a Bible there was a Bible sitting there and I was like what the heck? And I had and I recognized it immediately because it had my name on it and I and I was like, "Whoa." And I like grabbed it and it had been I'd never really cracked it open. It had been a long time since I revisited this and I was just like, >> "This can't be." And I was just like, but I was like, "You know what?" I come to that thing where I was like, "You know what? >> I'll give anything a shot at this point. I'd done everything." And so I'd sat down on my knees and I remember I had a Bible in one hand and I had a belt in the other hand that I was going to hang myself with. And I just cried out to a God I didn't even believe in where I said if you're even there and if you even care about me like show me why I should be alive because I can't live this way anymore and and I can't do this and I don't want to be alive and I don't think anyone would miss me and this is it. And I just remember something along those lines through tears through like you know ugly crying and um and I didn't I didn't have a white light burning bush Moses experience >> like in a way of like tangib whatever like but I remember I said that prayer and I opened my eyes and it was just as silent as this. You could hear pin drop in the room and I remember there was a little like alarm clock in the sober living and I remember after I said that prayer and I could hear the clock ticking in the background. I just heard like and I remember I heard a bird chirp outside >> and then I heard somebody rustling in the kitchen like getting a plate and I was like whoa. >> That's important cuz I had not heard background noise Yeah. >> in a long time cuz my head was so loud. I was constantly living in between my ears. I was constantly like, "What am I gonna do?" And like my brain was just chaos. Where am I gonna go? I gotta drink this. I'm like, I was so unaware and unpresent to my environment. I hadn't heard background noise or paid attention to anything other than what was going on in my head for so long. And I said that prayer and I opened my eyes and I could like I just remember the silence was deafening >> and I don't remember what I was thinking about. One moment it's like doom and gloom slideshow of pain, misery, remorse, depression, suicide, kill yourself. Everything just loud like a bullhorn in my head. I couldn't get it to shut up. And even drinking didn't help it. I drank and it still wouldn't shut up. And I'm like, well, and then I remember saying that prayer for the first time. Next moment, silence. It was like somebody unzipped my head, took those thoughts out, and just zipped it back up. >> Wow. >> And there was nothing there. >> Wow. >> And then I remember like >> and it wasn't like euphoric. I wasn't like, "Oh, I'm going to be sober." Like it wasn't this like whole real re revelation or anything, but it was just like >> I think now obviously hindsight looking back >> I think of when Jesus looks at the storm and he says, "Be still." >> Yeah. >> And it's just immediate just like be still. And it was just like calm. And uh I look at that Bible and I'm like freaked out a little bit where I'm like I was like what the hell? I like dropped the belt but I'm not thinking about killing myself anymore. All of a sudden I'm like that thought isn't even there. I can't muster it. I can't think about it. Like it's just not there. And I >> it's so I mean this painting that's right behind you. I don't know if you can see that. >> Oh yeah. >> But like >> oh man that's I so like you said like Jesus said calm the waves like look at that paint. Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's that's like what my life looked like. You know my boat did not look that good though. But um uh yeah dude >> I mean so so that moment happens >> and >> so I'm freaked out. >> Yeah. >> And like because there's silence and I'm like no way that worked. I'm like no way. And I'm like I'm just like I'm just processing. I'm like because I can't think. Like I could there was literally no thoughts. Like it was just like peace. It wasn't like I went like brain dead. It was just like no thoughts. >> Yeah. >> And it wasn't euphoric. It wasn't good or bad. It was just neutrality. And I was like >> And I remember holding that Bible and I was like And I remember looking at it like kind of felt like he like a little weird, a little I was like, "Dude, what the hell?" And I remember I just went and I like magic eightball opened up the Bible and I was like and I just opened it and it opened up to Job chapter 3 >> and I'll never forget this and I remember I opened it. I never read Job. Never heard the book of Job. Never got taught that in Sunday school. That'd be a gnarly book to teach the kids but it's sick. And I remember it was Job chapter 3 and I just read it and I was like Job. I was like what is this? And I remember like reading it and then it was the day that Job cursed the day that he was born. And it was Job's lament to God of saying, "Why didn't you just kill me when I was like in my mother's womb? I wish I would have just been born a stillborn." And it's Job after losing everything and Job having had everything taken away from him and being at the brink of just despair and misery, he's like crying out to God of like, "Why am I alive?" And Job is questioning his own desire to live. And uh and I just remember reading that and just sobbing and I was just like no way. And then all of a sudden like full body chills like full >> like just crying like an infant finally like just being able to just I mean everything came out. I'm like >> Yeah. >> It's just I'm weeping. >> Yeah. >> And like fell face first. And I and I remember that night I read the rest of it and I see Job's like restoration. And I like I continued to read and I was just like, "No way. There's something here." >> Wow. >> And it was this little moment and I remember I closed it and I'm not crying anymore. I kind of gathered myself again. No thoughts. And I'm like, "Are you sure you don't want to like I was like there was no thoughts of suicide and there was no thoughts of I need to get drunk anymore either. There was something different." And I was like, >> "All right, there's something here." I was like, "I don't know whatever the hell this is, >> but there's something here." And then I remember that popped into my head >> and it's weird. Like it wasn't an audible. I didn't hear like Hunter like it wasn't like God, but like it was like somebody unzipped my head again and just put a thought in there and zipped it back up >> and it was like you need to go to a meeting tomorrow. >> Yeah, >> that was the only thought. It wasn't like you're going to meet this. It wasn't like a prophetic realization. It was just >> do this. >> And now I was like okay I can do that. It was one >> point of direction that just came into my head. I've been going to meetings forever, but all of a sudden I'm like, I'm going to go to a meeting tomorrow. That's all I have on the docket. >> Yeah. >> And I remember I fell asleep that night. >> And I had suffered from like insomnia and like a lot of just the symptoms of, you know, >> addiction and all the crap that was going along with it. I slept better that night than I I think I ever have in my life. Like I I slept completely through the night. And I remember waking up the next morning and that same thought was there >> and I was like, "You need to go to a meeting." And I was like, "Okay." >> And I ended up going and that was like my entry level. into >> what would now be, you know, the foundation of how I built my life. And um that was the pivot. So that's the moment. There's a lot that happens obviously now to get to here, >> but it was like I pivoted away from God. And this was my moment where now I'm pivoting away from drugs and alcohol. I'd make the pivot away where it's like this life is going to kill me. >> Yeah. >> And like I'm I'm at the end of myself. I'm going to pivot in this direction. Now, it wasn't like I need to get baptized and like hold this whole thing, but it was a pivot. I always tell people this like I didn't come and I wasn't a Christian right away like and I we can talk about it if we have time. I don't want to waste your time. But um >> honestly I would love to have you back for another episode to talk like again we we have this whole we have the context now we we understand who you are where you came from. I think that's so important too. >> Um >> but then hearing about okay now you're turning away from drugs and alcohol. This moment happens with God but then it's like what does it look like now moving forward kind of thing. I would I would love to hear that. Um And this moment was like what I tell people a lot it was is that I didn't come to God looking for heaven. I came running away from hell. >> Like I turned away. It was just this like I had I had felt hell. >> Yeah. >> I believed in hell before I believed in heaven. >> Yeah. >> And I believed in death and misery and like I believed in evil before you know uh before I knew who my creator was. And even then in that moment it was just like a little like >> drop. I think of even like Abraham's bosom in that story where where Lazarus is separated um by his master and he he just begs for him to dip his finger in the water and just give him like a taste and I felt like I'm on this side and I all I got was a drop >> and uh >> and that was like the start and that was the catalyst and I pivoted and it changed there from that moment in that bedroom. My life has never been the same. >> Wow. And to this day, it took a lot of like practice and we can talk about it next time or whatever. Um, but to this day, from that moment, exactly, I've never had another suicidal thought. I've never had depression come back. I have never had >> I mean, I've had moments of being anxious or maybe feeling bummed or sad about something, but I have never had that come back. >> Depth of darkness. >> Never. It has never returned. >> Wow. >> And God willing, it never will again. And uh >> Yeah. And so I mean two things that I would love for you to speak to and I love this kind of wrapping up this episode too. Um >> could you look at that camera and talk to the addict that is out there right now and hasn't reached that breaking point or um is at the end of theself. I mean what do you what do you say? Well, I do it a lot. Um, I've I've had the fortunate opportunity to work with a lot of of people at their rock bottoms and and addicts and alcoholics. Had some guys have some success. I've had a lot of people fail. Um, not fail like as if they needed to meet my standard, but I have a lot of people who want to get sober and aren't willing to do what it takes. And, you know, I haven't given the solution or the detail of like where my life has trajeced from that point, you know, 5 years ago that has happened to where I'm at today. But what I'll what I'll say to people is that, you know, the solution's there. You don't have to live the life that you're living right now. And I know that it probably feels like you're on an island and that nobody else feels the way that you feel. Um, and that it feels like you're all alone and it feels like you have nobody to reach out to. Um, but there is a society and a a fellowship of people and men and women that you probably have heard all the things before. You've probably maybe even been to church before. Maybe you've done meetings. Maybe you've given it a shot before, but there is a way of life that is beyond what you could possibly imagine. But in order to get there, I had mentioned earlier um where I was in treatment in a lot of these uh secular um recovery programs and they talk a lot about self-help and what I've come to learn is that it was never a self-help way of life. It was a self-abandonment way of life. And uh I had to die to myself and uh finally let go of what I'd been holding on to um for so long. And I didn't even know what that took. But I or nobody externally can manufacture that within you. Um I wish I could put it in a bottle or in a pill form and give it to somebody to where you take this and now all of a sudden you're recovered or now all of a sudden you have this answer in this life. But I wouldn't rob you of the journey even if I could do that. Um, it takes coming into a place of humility and admission of of powerlessness to realize that like a child like I don't have the answers and the way that I'm living my life right now is unmanageable and I don't know what I'm doing and that there is something out there and there are people out here and there are people who have overcome that that you're not alone. Um, and there's a way out but you have to make that decision. Can't do it for your mom. Can't do it for your kids. You can't do it for anything externally. It has to come from a desire of within you, from the deepest, most inner part of yourself that you want to make a change and that you are done. And you don't have to have that all figured out right now. I know plenty of people who like didn't know if they were done or didn't know if they wanted to get sober the rest of their life, but there has to be an end of yourself. And I've seen a lot of bottoms. I've seen people have very high bottoms. And and I think um I think the you know multi-millionaire Fortune 500 company CEO who can't stop drinking and the guy on Skid Row who has a needle in his neck and has been living on the streets for 20 years um have the same thing in common, right? And uh nothing that you can feel externally from what this world has to offer will ever satisfy that itch you're trying to scratch. It just won't. Um, and you have two options. There's you can go on to the bitter end trying to blot out the consciousness of your intolerable situation right now, or you can pivot and accept spiritual help from a God that is crazy about you. And from men and women who have not only come to that faith and realization, but have walked the walk and know what it's like. Um, there is a there's a poem I think would be a good way to wrap it up that helped shift things for me that uh it's like a parable. It's a poem. It's a story. It's called a drunk who fell in a hole. >> Um, so it goes like there's a drunk who fell in a hole and uh he couldn't get out. He didn't have a ladder. It was too deep of a hole. And um all of a sudden a doctor uh comes by the hole and he says, "Hey man, how did you get in that hole?" And he goes, "I don't know. Can you help me get out of here?" And the doctor tells him, "Well, if you take this medication and you do this and you um take this prescription and you get on this, then it might help you get out of the hole, make you feel better about being in the hole." So, the drunk was in the hole and he took the prescription and he did the doctor's orders, but he was still in the hole. And then so the doctor wished him well and he kept going about his way. And then a therapist came by and a therapist said came across the drunk in a hole and he said, "Hey man, like how did you get in this hole? Can you get out?" He's like, "Yeah, can you help me get out? I don't know how I got in here. I don't know how to get out. Um, and the therapist felt bad for him and he sat with him for an hour and he talked about his inner child. He talked about his past. He said, you know, did your did your childhood or your parents put you in that hole? And he talked to him about like all these inner workings of his mind. And then he said, "All right, well, I'll be back next week for another hour. Maybe we can talk about getting you out of that hole." And yet the drunk was still in the hole. >> And um, a priest came by >> and uh, he said, "Hey, man. How did you get in this hole?" And um, the drunk said, "Man, I I don't know how I got in this hole." um I can't get out. Can you help? Can you help me get out of the hole? And the priest said,"Man, I I I know someone who can and I can pray for you." And the priest sat with him for a while. He gave him some scripture. He prayed with him and he prayed for him. And then the priest walked away and he was still in the hole and he didn't understand why. He felt reassured and he felt new and he felt uh some understanding, but he was yet still in the hole. Um, and a recovered alcoholic walked by and saw the drunk in the hole. And the guy said, "Hey, can you help me get out of this hole?" And without thinking, the recovered alcoholic jumped in the hole with the guy. And he said, "What the hell are you doing? Now we're both stuck in the hole. Why are we in here? What? Now we're both stuck. How are we going to get out?" And the guy said, "It's okay. I've been here before. I'm going to show you the way out." And walked with him and showed him the way out of the hole. Um, kind of a simple >> little analogy. Um, I get emotional when I think about that. I kind of paraphrase it and probably butchered it, but like um I had tried all these avenues and uh it was only then when I met other men and women who had walked down this path and had lived the life that I lived and knew what I was going through and were able to show me, not tell me, preach at me, like point me. They were able to walk with me, hold my hand, and show me. And they took my hands and they put it in God's hands and they walked me down this path. Was I finally able to realize what was going on? And it was >> yeah, >> it was that moment. And if you're at your wits end, there's men and women who would jump at the chance to to help you. But you got to want to help yourself first. And that's >> that's reaching the end of yourself. So >> yeah. >> Um >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um if you are listening to this and you are uh struggling um whether that be with substance abuse or with um you know suicidal thoughts or or you don't have any community and you feel alone um know that we are here for you. in the description of this video, there's going to be a ton of resources um for you to go to. I'm sure Hunter is going to help us to make that list as best as we can make it. >> Um and know that you're not alone. Um and that there is hope and uh you know, given the choice to pivot or die, you have a choice. Um and uh we're here for you. Um >> so, Hunter, thank you so much, man. >> Yeah, of course. for sharing your story and um I'm excited to uh have you on again for for a part two and get to hear >> part two is not going to be as dark. We can laugh and joke around a lot. There's a lot too. It's very serious air in a vacuum, but it's uh I appreciate you having me, man. It mean it means a lot. You know, I get tired sometimes of of telling my story cuz it's just mine and I cringe about talking about myself for so long. But, you know, if it can if anybody can relate or reach out if a if a dumb drunk college dropout arrogant freaking kid like me can do it, anybody can do it. And uh and it's possible. And you have a a loving father who made you and knew you before he formed you in your mother's womb. >> Um who can show you the way. >> And um I'm eternally grateful, man. I really appreciate you having this time and having this space. I'm stoked to see other guests that you have on. And if you ever need a guest, I have a lot of people that can come and share another story that probably outdoes mine, but uh yeah, man. It's been a pleasure. >> Appreciate you, bro. >> Thank you, sir. >> Yeah, man. >> Cool. >> Everybody, like, follow, subscribe, share this because uh if you don't need it, somebody else does. Um so, thanks for being with us. This has been Pivot podcast. >> Comment, do all the things. Push that like button. Let's go >> 100%. real quick. Plug the two things that you're doing. >> Uh well, I am locally right now. I'm a dog trainer and uh I have OCK9A Academy.com. You can go online if you have a dog who has behavioral issues and stuff like I said with my mom's background or whatever. I have a business and I can help and I I serve all the Orange County and Los Angeles area um and can get you connected for that. I also have, if you're in the recovery community, have a cool thing. Um, it's called 180 mint180mm i nt.com. Uh, I make custom sobriety coins. We started a business back in September. Um, and I had this idea and uh have run with it where I make some really awesome quality custom uh brass. >> They're so they look so sick. >> There's a lot of like cheap freaking like, you know, coins out there that are lame. And if your sponsor or you or somebody gets a milestone, you should honor it and go to 180.com or find us on Etsy or our Instagram at 180mint and come get a sick recovery corner. If you want to make your own, talk to me and we can get you a sick project started. But that's what I got going on. But >> amazing. >> Also, I don't I don't blame you if you heard my story and you're like, I don't know if I want that guy to train my dog. No, I'm just kidding. >> Hunter, thank you so much for being on the podcast, everybody. Thank you for listening. >> Awesome. Cool. Bye-bye.
