Pivot Or Die

And Jesus, he comes to me. He's right here, but I can't see him. He's still invisible, but I know he's there. And he says to me, "Son, I love you." And he's like, "Oh, I'm going to church." I was just like, "Oh, what's church?" I could describe it is that I felt like I got struck by lightning. I never had a father say, "Son, I love you." And God the father comes to me and the only thing on his mind is son I love you. Wait a minute now Tim you don't have a dad. Oh wait you don't have a dad. Wait. Not a single person had lived with a dad in that room. If you want me to teach you to be a father first learn to be a son. Wait a minute. >> You've really redeemed every part of my life. That's what happens when you say yeah I will surrender my life to Jesus. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Pivot or Die podcast. I'm your host Seth Kaser and today I am joined by my good friend Tim Felker. Am I pronouncing that right? >> Oh yeah, you got it. >> Fantastic. Tim is um amongst many things uh he's a pastor, he's an entrepreneur, um he's a father, he's a husband, um and an avid is it Brazilian jiu-jitsu specifically? Okay. Um and just honestly, Tim, >> it was probably what a year or two ago that you and I met for coffee at Moongo right down the street. >> And we sat almost like this, right? Yeah. and we didn't know each other at all and just had >> we literally just met. >> Yeah. And we we had had a a conversation just about life, man. And it just that conversation was was so real and honest and we we went all over the place in the conversation, right? And >> I walked away from that conversation specifically. It's one of them in my mind that I can pinpoint that's like, man, >> if I just had a mic and a camera that was recording that, that would be an amazing podcast. So, it it started me on this this process of thinking, man, >> these awesome conversations that just happen when you don't really know a person super well >> and you just kind of sit down and go, what's what's the what's your story kind of thing, right? Um, amazing things come up in that conversation and that one that we had was one that I can point to and go, "Dang, that made me want to start this podcast." >> So, I'm really excited to have you on, dude. I know we've had to push it back a couple weeks and everything. >> Right. I've been excited to come and hang out and I also remember the conversation and >> it was good times. >> Absolutely, man. Um, and so I mean, can you just tell us a little bit too? I gave you a little intro, but I mean, what's kind of going on in your life right now? >> Yeah. Well, let's see. I am married. Uh, I think I'm on 25 years in May. >> Uh, I have five kids. Uh, my three youngest kids are adopted out of the foster system from LA County. Um, I am a senior pastor of Father's House OC. >> So, that uh, you know, is takes up a good amount of my time, too. Um, we also have uh my wife and I, we run something called Fired Up Arts, which is >> a pottery studio. Yeah. >> Uh, mainly, you know, servicing homeschool kids. We've been doing that since 2018 >> and that's, you know, been quite a fun ride and that's that's growing and flourishing. And that's also part of my church's homeschool learning center. So, >> uh, God's really has like all the things we love, God smashed it into one big thing. And I kind of didn't see that coming in life, but there was certain things along the way had to give up. Wouldn't >> wasn't sure if I'd be able to do this or that. But God really has brought all the things I love >> um together into one thing that I do every day. You know, >> I get up every morning at 4:45. I train jiu-jitsu at 5:30 a.m. every single day. And yeah, uh my kids are all in sports. I got two kids that are adults already >> and one that's honestly possibly gonna get married soon. >> Oh god. >> So that's uh there's lots of lot of things happening. >> A lot of movement in life. >> Do you feel as though I mean when when when I hear you say, man, wake up at 4:45 training at 5:30, right? Doing these different things. I mean the word that comes into my mind is discipline, right? Um, would you always describe yourself as somebody that was that disciplined? >> You know, uh, not really. I don't think, um, I don't think I ever really thought about it disciplined. And, you know, when you're not good at something and you're not finding the breakthrough, you're thinking, man, I'm not disciplined, >> you know. Um, but there's, you know, there's certain things where it's like I'm like a creative mind, >> you know, like discipline's not even good enough. in a sense like it's more like obsession. >> Yeah. >> It like that's where it clicks over for me. Obsession like where >> I have like immense drive to do something that is beyond discipline. >> And then um but what I love about jiu-jitsu is there's nothing quick about jiu-jitsu. You know, as an artist, I do love the end product of something. I love, >> man. I can't wait to get to the end of this cuz it's going to reveal something this process. >> But jiu-jitsu is not like that, you know? It's >> um it's really slow. You're bad at it for 10 years. >> So, there's like a whole another level of obsession that you have to have to go and >> uh you know, get beat up literally every morning. And some days you kind of feel good and then you meet someone, you're like, I'm not good at all. >> You know, I have a long ways to go. Um so yeah, I'm sure that that that like um challenge of always having um a different a different sparring partner kind of thing too, right? Where it's always like you guys are constantly pushing yourself. And that >> that concept of of feeling like, man, I got it. that guy that I couldn't tap, I finally got him to tap and then now there's a guy that comes that's above that, right? I'm sure that that feels like >> and I think like the best part about it for me it's like I'm not really in it to you know travel the world and compete like I'm approaching 50 >> and I could I guess you could you know there's no there's no age you can't just go and compete but I it's for me it's about the team. It's like when you're in jiu-jitsu the best part about it is your team. if I don't show up, there's going to be a bunch of guys that are texting me, what's wrong with you? >> And so, it's like here's this um >> it's like that's why I don't think about it as a as discipline so much. Although it is a discipline to get up and do that, but it's like an accountability to my brothers. >> You know, they're they're expecting me to be there and I'm expecting them to be there. >> Yeah. >> I'm going there to not only improve myself, but to see them improve. M >> you know there's times where I'll get tapped out by them and I'll be happy about it in a sense >> because like oh man they figured this out. I've been I've been you know dominating them in this way and they figured it out. >> Yeah. >> And so I don't know this is to me it's more about the team >> than anything else and growing as a team. Actually I I think it's a beautiful model. I would like to see church be like this more >> where it's like you come together every single day and challenge each other. Like you literally are exposing each other's weaknesses >> for the purpose of not shame or guilt or being better than somebody else but for the purpose of elevating someone else. >> And everyone is on that same page. Yeah. >> Really? It's only the new guys that are coming in trying to dominate and be better and try to be good. the rest of us, we already know we're not good. >> Like, if you compare yourself to worldclass jiu-jitsu people, you're not good. >> Yeah. >> You're never even gonna get approach what they can do, right? >> So, the idea is like I am good at a level. I'm good at a local level at my gym, right? I might be good there, but in the scheme of things, it'd be like, oh, I play basketball down the street. >> Mhm. >> And then think, well, could I play basketball in the NBA? No. you wouldn't even you couldn't even step on the court, right? >> So, you're not really there for like, oh, I'm going to get good and dominate everybody. >> It has to be like a deeper place. But it it's it's the repetition of it, right? Too, because it's also that like I I almost think of um of it it's like it's like chess in a way too because it's always moves and and counter moves. So, it's not just a physical thing. I'm sure that it's a workout too, right? Right. Right. >> But then it's also a mental game that you're playing at the same time. >> Yeah. It's I mean once your body gets used to it, it when when you first start it's terrible, you know, physically terrible. There's people smashing your face and you can't breathe and you can't move >> and you don't understand why every move you make makes it worse. M >> um but once your body conditions to that and you learn some technique over a few years um then it is you it finally switches over to like the playing the chess match >> knowing that you're you're utilizing you want someone to >> go back you pull them forward you want someone to come forward you push them back >> and and things like that. So you learn to, you know, create traps and set things up and then you start developing a game where it's like here's how I play >> the chess game of jiu-jitsu. That's >> my opening and exactly. So that's amazing. >> It gets really fun, really strategic, and then your friends are growing with you. So there's a group of guys that I've been with for six years now. >> We're all the same belt. We've been coming together every morning for six years >> and we're, you know, keep going like this up and up and up >> getting better and it's like constant challenge. Do you feel like if somebody is um if somebody's lacking community that finding a jiu-jitsu gym >> Oh my gosh. that community. When you talk about team, it's like >> that that sort of um level of >> holding each other accountable and and calling when you're not there, all that kind of stuff is like that is something that I think a lot of people >> don't have in their lives, >> right? And so, do you feel like that would be a good thing? >> 100%. I mean, there's different types of gyms. There are gyms that are meant for competition where highlevel guys are going cuz they want to give a shot at being world class guys, right? >> And that's a total different vibe than like your local jiujitsu gym. >> Yeah. >> At your local jiu-jitsu gym, you're going to find a coach who's dedicated his life to jiujitsu >> and he's there uh creating a culture in his own jiu-jitsu studio. And each culture is slightly different depending on is he actually Brazilian? >> Is he an American that learned Brazilian jiu-jitsu? Did he wrestle and do judo and this this and that and jiu-jitsu? Um and so there's this whole mix of the coach is like creates this culture and this vibe. >> Yeah. >> And then everyone comes in >> and begins to operate in that culture and in that vibe, you know, and >> uh what what happens is this community. What's really cool is I could go I'm going to go this weekend for a soccer tournament for my daughter in Las Vegas. I could pop in. I'm just going to look up a jiu-jitsu gym, go to an open mat. >> I'm going to walk in there and not know anybody >> and I'm going to like honestly be received with open arms. At the end of that, I might get beat up. I might have a couple good rounds, but at the end, guys are going to shake my hand and hey, thanks for coming. you know, and we'll have like this instant camaraderie >> cuz we do the same thing, you know. So, there is like a bigger family, too. It's very similar like, >> you know, when you uh as a Christian, you go to another church and and you meet people or you're you meet someone new and you find out they have faith in Christ, too. And and there's like that instant connection, you know, because you have that type of fellowship, right? >> Jiu-jitsu in a way is has a feel like that. There's like this instant connection. We do this hard thing. We have this belief. >> Yeah. >> In the same thing, you know. So, >> wow. >> Yeah. Well, if you're looking for community, my goodness. Uh jiu-jitsu. I I hope the church can learn to do community as good as jiu-jitsu. >> Yeah. >> I love that. Okay. So, let's let's kind of go back a little bit for your story. Um, one of the questions that I love to ask is just to kind of go, okay, you're born, right? What are you born into? What what surrounds you as a as a young child? I mean, you talk about your faith. You talk about being a Christian now, being into jiu-jitsu. When you're talking about your life, I would describe it as somebody who is disciplined, obsessed, those kind of things, right? when you just talk about it right now. Was that did that start later on or was that kind of from from birth? Let's let's go back. >> Um, yeah. So, I was born in Ohio and uh my parents split up. I don't even I honestly don't even know if they're actually ever married. >> I actually don't know. >> Um, my mom moved out to California because that's where my grandma lived. She lived out here. And I did not meet my dad till or talk to him on the phone. I didn't even know what he looked like until I I was like 13. >> He knocked on my door and I met my dad. >> Wow. >> For the first time. So, I grew up in a house. Um I lived it was my mom, single mom, uh my grandma, aunts, uncles, cousins, you know, it was like a probably a three-bedroom house in Huntington Beach with like 20 people living in it. M >> and I was kind of raised by like '8s rockers skin heads. >> So I, you know, as a 5-year-old, I would go to high school parties. >> I mean, cuz they would be at my house, you know, giant >> drinking, drugs, raggers, like at my house. And >> that's just the environment that I grew up in, you know, and uh my mom had to work all day and she'd even had a job at nighttime. And so my grandma took care of me a lot of the times and I just hung out with my older, you know, 10 years older than me, cousins and uncles. >> Mhm. >> And did high school things at five, six, seven years old. Um, so I think maybe that's where some of my unique personality might come in, you know, is um that's kind of like a unique experience. some some really fun things and some not so good things. You know, when >> uh you have unsupervised uh you're an unsupervised child with, >> you know, '8s rockers, skin head, you know, leaders as you know, basically raising me, you know. Um but yeah, I grew up in Huntington Beach and uh kind of eventually, you know, started getting into trouble myself, you know, just uh really directionless, actually even kind of angry inside and not even knowing why, you know. What what time in your life do you think that that kind of >> you know around the early like junior high age sixth seventh grade is when I started to like >> you know experimenting with drugs and uh you know >> trying to do things to fit in be cool um even extreme things you know uh and it just was kept getting each year you know it was getting more and more extreme you And it was really driven by like I had no um I had no like sense of identity who I was. I had no mentoring or fathering like in a positive way, you know. >> Um and so I was really directionless and uh I was even angry about things that I went through. um angry that uh I didn't have what I needed, you know, but I couldn't articulate that. >> Yeah. >> You know, I think I just thought I honestly thought I was normal that everyone grew up like I did. >> And >> did the did the friends that you had around you, were they kind of raised in similar situations? Did you gravitate towards kids with a similar story? >> Uh it was kind of funny. We had this uh we were sitting around a friend's house again. He single mom. The mom's not home. We're all sitting around doing whatever. I can't remember. >> How old are you at this point? >> It's like high school, like young high school. >> And we just like I don't even know how the topic came up. And it's like, "Wait a minute. Oh, Tim, you don't have a dad. Oh, wait. You don't have a dad. Wait." >> Not a single person had lived with a dad in that room. And there was like 15 guys in that room. >> Yeah. >> And we're just like, "Huh, that's weird. Probably means nothing, you know?" >> Yeah. >> But we did. We like gravitated to each other as brothers, you know, as like these uh kind of wild kids that >> we would probably have really large Tik Toks if like you know it existed back then cuz we did some insane wild things. >> Um just for lack of supervision, lack of direction >> and yeah, that's just kind of how it was. were Huntington Beach apartment kids, you know, they were kind of like honestly it's kind of sketchy back then, you know. >> Yeah. Do um >> do you still I'm just curious. Do you keep in contact at all with any of those guys? When you think about that room, are there guys in that room that are still >> there's you know through social media? Well, one of my one of my good friends from high school who, you know, we were best friends. I'm still he doesn't live too far. We we hang out, you know, >> two three times a year. Yeah. >> And uh >> so yeah, there is some contact, but honestly >> um not tons there's not tons. When I, you know, >> when I made decisions to go a different direction, a lot of those, >> you know, friendships were broken off. So >> yeah, absolutely. So you're you're um you know in high school 15 16 17 around that age um kind of getting into trouble. You got this group of friends that are around you. I mean let's let's go from there cuz to me right now >> the person that you are today and and that person of course they're they're very different but it it does feel like there's going to be some big pivots that are coming up. >> Right. Right. Um, yeah. So, I honestly at I had in my mind at, you know, a teenager that, hey, if I if I have friends, if I'm well-liked and popular at school, if I have like some a job and some money, I have a girlfriend, like, okay, I'm at like the pinnacle of life, you know? had these thoughts like this is what I need to this is what I need to achieve to like feel whole and like okay with myself. And so one by one I started you know from junior high working on this list that I created in my mind of >> this is what I need to like feel like I have value you know it was it was a conscious thing and unconscious thing it's hard to explain but I knew the list in my mind especially when I would achieve something you know like okay >> it was like there was a check mark there >> yeah even though I wasn't thinking about all the time but there was like a value system a an operating system running that's saying hey in order to be somebody and to have value you need to be have these things you know >> so I was going after those things and you know probably around when I was 16 17 it's like I I can't remember what the last piece was that I thought but I got it >> and I was just like in my room and I was like >> I feel no different >> than when I was at the bottom of this list >> and I I there was I realized is like I think there's something more to life than like achieving these things to receive value. I don't know what it is, but I think there's more. And because when I just I just climbed some ladders and mind you >> to most people insignificant ladders, but to me they were significant, right? >> And when I got to those, I realized, wait a minute, these external things, they promise everything, but they give nothing. M >> and it really honestly shook me up a bit because I'm like, okay, if this is not how life is structured, >> I I need to figure out how this is structured cuz if you don't get value from out there, where does it come from? How do you >> have like inner confidence and peace and >> how do you feel like you're okay with yourself? Because I thought it was by achieving these things. So that's the kind of thought I had probably approaching 17 years old or just around 17. >> Yeah. where it really shook me up like okay it was at the top it's empty so I need to find what's going to fill me up >> and where where did you start looking at that >> to be honest I didn't even know where to look I just went back to >> or it was one of those you had that thought big moment and there's nowhere to go in it literally nowhere to go and so I um you know in the very short amount of time passes a week or so and I was hanging out with my buddy and We we we honestly wanted to like pick up chicks and so, hey, let's go downtown Main Street and we went and walked around and there was like nobody there, you know? We're just like, okay, this is really lame. Like there's no there's no one around. There's nothing to do. We definitely had higher expectations than this. >> And this guy approaches us and he like shows us this little card trick or magic trick. I can't remember what it was. And he's like, "Oh, can I show you this?" "Sure." Shows it. I was like, "That was actually kind of cool, you know." >> Yeah. >> And he's like, "Yeah, I'm not really out here to show magic tricks. I'm just here. I want to know, can I put my name in your Bible and pray so I could pray for you every day? >> Can I put He wanted to put my name?" Yeah. He's like, "I want to put your name in my Bible and so I could pray for you every day." That's what he told me. Told me and my friend. >> And I was like, "Sure." And I looked at my friend Jeff and I'm like, "Hey, should we do it?" And he's like, "Yeah." So then he he goes to my friend, "What's your name?" And uh my friend Jeff said something like, "Oh, I'm Kevin." And the guy, the funny thing is like he opened his Bible and there's no other names in there. >> Ours were the first two. So he writes Kevin or whatever this fake name. Yeah. And he looks at me, "What's your name?" I said, "My name's Tim." >> And he writes Tim in there. >> And and he's like, "I'll be praying for you." That's all he said. And so I just that honestly like that honestly did something. I I liked that. You know what I'm saying? Like wait this I didn't even know what pray meant. You know I had no belief system. I believe >> at that point you had no exposure to religion. >> You never been to a church in my life >> really. Never. >> Okay. >> I didn't even know I I had no idea that Christmas was about the birth of Christ or Easter about the resurrection. I had no idea. So, do you feel like this was kind of a a first exposure kind of thing? >> 100%. This was like um this was like some pieces to what I was searching for. >> Yeah. >> Well, piece one was searching. >> Yeah. >> Like, okay, at the top is nothing. >> Yeah. >> So, I better find where there's something, >> right? So, then this guy says, "Hey, I just want to pray for you. I'll put my name in your Bible." And I give him my name, and that's all I do. And then uh another short time, literally like a week or so later, I had a friend that passed away in a car accident. This terrible tragedy, you know, >> and probably the first time I ever stepped foot in a church as like a conscious understanding where I was, right? I I think I was baptized in a Catholic church. >> Yeah. >> Uh as a child where they, you know, poured water over my head. Um but from that moment when I was whatever four years old till this moment I never stepped foot in a church or understanding that I was in a church you know >> and I went to the funeral. There's you know hundreds of young people. >> Wow. >> And um I just the music was playing in this Catholic church and it was all in Latin. It was kind of like >> you know operaesque type Latin probably singing hymns or something. Was it um did they have this because I'm a musician this is my whole thing like is there were there instruments playing or was it just >> it was before the uh service started it was just background music of like this >> Latin probably hymns like singing and this operaesque type of >> chanting type of music if you can hear that in your mind >> I mean like orthodox chant kind of And I was sitting there and I was like that music was hitting hard >> really. >> I was like I looked at my friend same friend who you know was with me at Main Street Kevin >> and I'm like are you I are you hearing this? He's like yeah I hear it. I'm like I like this music. Mh. >> It was I was literally having an experience like I was having an encounter with God at that moment. I didn't know it. >> Yeah. >> At the time, but I knew something was happening. >> Yeah. >> I was like feeling and experiencing the love of God for the first time just sitting there. >> Wow. >> And it was I was hearing the music and it's chanting. I don't know what it's saying, but there was just something on it that I liked. >> Yeah. And I was like, man, I just want more of this music for some reason, you know? Like, this is this makes me feel so good. >> Like, I could sit in this pew all day long. That's what I was thinking to myself. Like, I don't want to leave this place. >> Like, this presence and this feeling, I want this, you know? >> So, that was like piece number two to the, >> you know, where I was headed, you know. Mhm. >> Um and then I I was really into um I was trying to, you know, just get in in I wanted to be in shape, you know, I wanted to be healthy and in shape and >> um I decided I'm not going to drink alcohol so much and instead I'm going to >> I'm going to like work out and run with my friends, you know? >> Yeah. And I met this new friend at at uh my high school who his family is like had a background of like they're track runners and football players and he like knew about working out and running cuz his dad and his uncles like taught him about track and running and working out and >> and he was a funny guy and and so we would >> hey you want to start working out and running together, you know, >> and >> for I can't remember how long this was, but we would go running pretty regularly. you know, and then one time, um, again, this was maybe like a month or so later after the funeral thing, we've already been running, you know, 2, three, 4 days a week. >> Mhm. >> And this was it was like right before a weekend. And we're we're jogging. And he's and I was just like, uh, what are you doing this weekend? It was just small talk as we're on this long run, you know, >> and he's like, um, I'm going to church. I was just like, oh, what's church? I didn't even know what the word like. I didn't understand what happens. >> I understood it as a building. >> Yeah. >> But I didn't understand it as people doing as an activity people did together, you know. And I was like, "Well, what >> what do you do there?" You know, and he's like, "Oh, well, there's like a band >> and then, you know, we sing to God. We sing songs to God. There's a band that like leads songs. We do that >> and then there's someone who like teaches the Bible." And he's like, "You want to come?" And I was like, "Well, what do you have to wear?" >> Yeah. >> You know, cuz that was kind of my biggest concern. Like, bro, I don't like have a suit or something, you know? I'm not going to do that. He's like, "No, like you just wear whatever you want." >> I'm like, "Okay, I'll go." He's like, "Oh, you will?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'll go." I'm like, "But if" is what I told him. I'm like, "If I'm the only one dressed different, you are going to die." >> Yeah. So I threatened the person who invited me to church and I was serious. I would murder him if if I was the only one dressed different, you know. >> Yeah. >> And so I pick him up on a Sunday that very Sunday and we go to his church and I walk in and it was it was like a church in a warehouse, you know, uh type of vibe. Good size goodiz church. like a seemed like a good amount of people and sat there and the there's a little, you know, there's a band there playing music and oh, this sounds nice, you know, and everybody's friendly. The pastor gets up and he's teaching the Bible, but I literally I know nothing. So, I can't even >> I have no context for any words he's saying. It's just like ww. It's But I like being there. You know what I'm saying? But I don't I'm not like receiving any information or anything. Just I'm just there enjoying it. I'm not opposed to it. I'm just oh this is cool. I'm just honestly curious. Kind of just taking it in. Not resistant to anything. >> But I really have no idea what's even happening at all in that service. And uh you know it's kind of getting towards probably the end of the service and um what happened to me is the entire the entire church went completely silent. Like someone took the faders in my ears and brought them to zero >> and I could hear nothing. And then it was like imagine if the the church was filled with a cloud. It was completely I was looking through substance through as if a cloud was inside the room and I'm the only one having this experience and I'm sitting there the and like all I used to call it whitewashed everything was whitewashed cuz it was in a cloud >> and Jesus he comes to me he's right here but I can't see him. He's still invisible, but I know he's there. And he says to me, "Son, I love you." And I was like, I was just frozen. >> Wow. >> And in those words was a bunch of information. He only spoke, "Son, I love you." But in that was a ton of information that I instantly knew. The first bit of information was that Jesus was God. And I was like, okay, the second bit of information is that I needed to surrender my life and uh give my life to him. And the way to do that was when the service was done, get up there and have people pray for you. >> And all of that was in Son, I love you. And so >> I'm sitting there and the cloud lifts and the faders go back up >> and it's like perfect timing and the the pastor's like, "Let's stand and pray." You know, >> and the the service is over and I I look to my friend and I say, "I need to go up front to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior." And his eyes almost fell out of his head cuz he knew I had no context for what I was even saying. Yeah. >> I had no language for that. I didn't know. >> I thought Jesus Christ was something you say when you drop a wrench on your foot cuz that's how we used it in my house. When you >> when you stubbed your toe, you say Jesus Christ. That's what it was in my family. >> And I turned to him. But I had a revelation. I had a visitation from Jesus in the middle of that church service. And he said, he told me he was God. >> Wow. >> And that I wanted to s I did want to surrender my life to him. So I said, "Hey, I need to go up front and have people pray for me." So he brought me up front. A group of people laid their hands on me and prayed for me. And I received Jesus as my Lord and Savior that day. Wow. >> And uh it was the most pivotal moment, one of the most pivotal moments in my life. >> Um was, you know, receiving having a revelation of who he was and saying, I want my life to be in you. Yeah. >> And not in anything else. Like I found that checklist I was talking about before. I actually found the real source of what I was looking for. Mhm. >> And yeah, it was what's interesting is um I I was missing a piece though because um I I was only just I was going to church from that moment on. My mom saw me every Sunday, get up early, go to church, get up early, go to church. And I kept telling her, "Hey, you need to come meet this Jesus. I met Jesus and you need to meet him." >> And she didn't want to come because she was like afraid of Jesus. She she went to Catholic school and nuns like, you know, >> spanked her with rulers and weird things. And she's like, "Dude, I I'm not going to church." Like, "Yeah, I I can't I can't handle that guilt right now, you know?" And I was like, "No, it's it's not how you're saying. Like, God's there and Jesus is there and he loves you and he wants you to come." And I just would say that, you know, literally invite her every Sunday. >> And um but my life didn't really change. I still like treated people bad. >> Yeah. >> I w I still I didn't care about doing drinking or drugs, although I wasn't doing it much just because I wanted to be healthy. Yeah. You know, it wasn't because of conviction of living a certain way. >> Yeah. >> And my life didn't change much. I could do mean things to people and not even think about it. Um I was pretty like um you know, hypocritical in a way. You know, I remember there was this kid I bullied a lot and uh someone he knew went to that that church and he he one day, you know, he heard I was going to church regularly. And he comes up to me and he's like, "Hey, I heard you became Christian." And I was like, "Oh, how cool. This guy knows that I'm Christian." You know, >> he's like, you know, maybe >> maybe you won't be such a jerk anymore. But he didn't use the word jerk. you know, he used a much stronger uh words to describe the things I've done to him. And I was just like, you know, I wanted to >> bully him that instant. Right. So there wasn't I had a belief, but I didn't have full transformation yet. >> And um so and so real quick, I just want to interject in this story real quick. anytime that um on the podcast somebody says, you know, says these things, it's like, man, I I heard from God or like even seeing, okay, like I had this vision and like Jesus came down and was standing right next to me and he said, "Son, I love you." Right. It's one of those things that I I always love to just stop for a minute and say like what do you >> what do you mean by that for somebody that I know just like yourself like you're talking about that maybe there's somebody listening who hasn't had any experience with the church and hasn't um been around uh Jesus or Christianity or anything like this. I mean when you hear those kind of things it's like >> what what was that actually like? Did you hear this audible voice? Was it a a a trance kind of moment or I mean what do you what do you think? How would you describe it too? >> I I don't know if it was audible or not. Yeah, >> I know no one else heard it but me. >> And uh it's I I don't know. I heard it >> but I but no one else did. So was it really audible? I don't know. >> Yeah. >> Um I think the the biggest the whitewashing was physical to me. M >> the deafness. I could only hear his voice. I couldn't hear a teaching. I couldn't hear the rumbling of a lot of people in a room. Right? That creates noise, right? There's background noise, rustling and coughing and whatever. >> There was blank. It was zero. >> It was like no decibb at all. Wow. >> And it's just his voice. It was very easy to hear his voice. >> Wow. >> Um if it was audible, I'm not sure. And >> it probably I would probably have to say it wasn't because nobody else heard it, but it was audible to me. >> Yeah. >> Um and it wasn't fully a trance >> cuz I I I was still in me >> in the seat knowing I was in the seat and it was all happening. It was like it was as if someone just like stopped time for a second >> and it was like I'm the only one that's has consciousness currently although it was all still happening you know. >> Yeah. >> But it was like it felt like a long time but when I came out of it it I knew it was a very short time. >> Mhm. like not much time had passed in that moment, you know, but in the moment >> it was like there was it could have been a very long it felt like this is happening for a long time, you know. >> Yeah. >> But I think the one of the one of the pieces here to understand why it was so impacting to me is because I never had a father say, "Son, I love you." M >> and God the father comes to me and the only thing on his mind is son I love you. I heard those words for the first time in that church. I never heard son I love you before. >> Wow. >> And I heard it from my mom but um you know I never I didn't have a father to say that. Right. That does something to you. Absolutely. And what God was doing in that moment was undoing the thing that was done from not having that. >> Yeah. >> And more, you know, and obviously much more than that. But that's why it really got my attention. >> Like a male figure. >> Yeah. >> Jesus came to me and said, "Son, I love you." >> I never heard a male figure say that to me before. And the first male figure I heard say it to me was Jesus. >> Wow. And so it was very impacting. >> And so you have this this experience, right? Um and you go up to the front, people are praying for you, but you're saying your life it there wasn't even >> kind of you know words like repentance and these different things I'm sure weren't in the vocabulary at that point, right? And so I mean what was what was kind of that moment? Was there was there another >> pivot that that brought about the transformation within you and your heart? Um, yeah, I kind of just went back. I was felt happier. I felt lighter, right? I felt changed, but the, you know, there wasn't, there was no conviction of sin. That's the only way I could put it. I did not feel any >> uh I did not feel any restraint on my actions at all. >> Yeah. I felt like I had the right to treat people however I wanted and do rude rude hurtful things >> to for my gain and that was totally fine. Like no character, no >> no no empathy at all for others, right? >> And so I was going to church and I, you know, I got a little uh new King Jame or uh no King James version Bible. I was like James version. >> King James version. Yes. And here's the I mean, here's another funny part. I, you know, grew up with like a learning disability. I c I could barely read at that point. I was like 17 years old. Had I probably had maybe a fifth grade reading level. >> Wow. >> And I started reading the Bible in King James version, not knowing. I just went to Barnes & Noble. Yeah. >> And went to the Bibles and it was like, "Oh, there's a $7 one. I can afford that." And I bought the $7 King James >> version. I just started reading it. Yeah. >> And I was like from reading King James version was healed from dyslexia reading that. >> Wow. >> I could my reading level came up to normal. >> Wow. >> Reading the King James Bible. >> Like you I literally I'm telling you I could barely read. You gave me like a kids book. I would struggle through it with the dyslexia and >> and just seeing the words properly, you know. picked up the King James version and started reading >> and understanding, you know, >> I need to give me a King James version, >> right? I think it's more fire than we realize. >> So, um, yeah, but again, the lifestyle change wasn't there. I went to church for, uh, you know, I can't remember how many months, eight, eight or so months. And then I went to a uh I didn't know the church had other services. Like there's night service and someone's like told me, "Oh, we're going to go to night service." I'm like, "What is that?" I'm like so clueless about everything, you know? Like, "Oh, if there's church in the morning, I and there's church at night." Like I want to beat up both of them, you know? And I go to church at nighttime and they do the worship and then there was time, you know, an announcement and a meet and greet and there's two high school gals sitting in front of me and turn around and they introduce themselves and they say, "Hey, are you going to camp?" >> I'm like, "What's camp?" You know, and they're like, "Oh, it's summer camp for, you know, youth summer camp." Yeah. >> And I'm again like, "What's that?" You know, and they explained that to me and I was like, "Well, if I get enough money, I knew my parents, my mom would not be able to pay for it. you know, >> and I was like, and I was gone for the first part of the summer, so I wasn't working a bunch, and I was like, I had one check sitting at my work waiting for me. I was like, well, if my and it was very close, like it was literally one week away. Like that's a very short time frame to sign up for camp. You know, a lot of camps like you can't even sign up at that time frame. >> And uh that person who invited me is now my wife. M. >> And so, uh, I I went to work to go pick up my check and it was the exact dollar amount of the camp >> and I cashed it and gave it to the church and signed up, you know, and and requested work offer that for the week. >> And I went up to that um I went up to that camp and it was a bunch of other I didn't even know there was other high school kids at the camp or at the church cuz I was going to the adult service. >> Yeah. And there's a whole there's a whole room full of like high school kids that I literally did not even know were there. >> Oh man. >> And so I get on the bus and I see people like from my school and apparently like they all knew about me cuz I had a reputation at the high school, you know, and they're like, >> "Oh, he's over here, >> you know, at the church now." >> Yeah. Um, and so went there and I was having a good time and and hanging with all the kids and there was, you know, multiple services a day and all these fun games and it was a really cool and >> I don't know, maybe like midweek there was this night service at the camp and the youth pastor got up and was like, "If anyone just wants more of God, come up to the front right now." And I was like thought to myself, well, I want more. Yeah. Why? >> That seems silly not to go up, you know? So, I go up. >> I close my eyes and I'm just standing up there with other kids and just with my hands open like this and just responding to what the person said, if you want more. And I was like, I want more. And u you know to my surprise I got more of and I it was like the only way I could describe it is that I felt like I got struck by lightning. >> That power hit me on the inside. Sorry about that. >> Power hit me on the inside um that I didn't know was possible. M >> and uh in that moment what I discovered is that there was power. There was a standard. It's so hard to describe like God was inviting me like, "Hey, I have a brand new way for you to live and here's the power to live it." >> Yeah. >> It wasn't like a duty like, "Hey, you need to live like this now." >> It was like, "No, there's there's something you you don't know yet >> and I want you to know it." It wasn't just the list of of rules. >> Zero list. >> And it was it was saying, "Hey, do you feel like when when you say zero list, do you feel like there was like things that it was like, hey, this is what the new outline of what I want you to live is like?" Or was it just like, "Hey, here's the power to change." It was here's what it was. It's like, I'm going to be with you every moment. You just got to listen to me. M >> you're not going to go do something on your own. I'm going to be there with you empowering you to do it, telling you what to do and empowering you to do it. I wasn't I wasn't someone following God on my own anymore. I was someone filled with God >> and and able to do what God wanted me to do by his empowering. >> Wow. >> And it was a complete game changer. And he did um I know I'm saying zero list because it wasn't like this duty thing. It was like, "Hey, the first thing we're going to do, it was it was like that." I was starting to I was literally hearing him inside now >> like for you know the first thing we're going to do like what are we going to do? Let's go. Let's go get rid of every stolen thing in your room. >> I want you to throw it all away and I want you to all of the back then it was CDs. You know, there was no streaming. I'm sorry, but we had I stole a lot of CDs, right? Albums. >> I literally had like these drawers that held them. Hundreds and hundreds. like the first thing we're going to do, I even pictured in my mind, I could see it. I'm going to dump all that in the trash. I had so much I mean everything in my room was literally stolen. >> Um and there was like we're going to go get rid of everything stolen >> and uh he even told me there's there's certain uh we're not going to go to these certain types of things anymore. We're not going to do this and that. But it wasn't like you don't do this anymore. It was like him and I he was going to guide me where to go and what to do. >> Wow. >> I didn't even have to carry a list around. He would just tell me, >> "Throw this away." And I would throw it away. >> Yeah. >> Go over here. I go over there. Say this to that person. I would just say it to that person. >> And so there was a living relationship inside of me now that I didn't have before. I had a belief in Jesus, a strong belief. I was telling everybody, I met Jesus, he loves me for some reason. And I think he if he can love me, he probably is going to love you. And I was telling everybody that and tons of people were coming to church. See, I just feel like that description that you just gave and that that um explanation of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling right within us. >> I know I say the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's like something that Christians it we we can say that a ton, >> but it's like the way that you just described it that it's no I I felt that God was not just around me anymore, but he was within me >> and right >> that he had given me the power to do to to change and he was then telling me how I needed to change and what I needed to do. I feel like that is just a sometimes us as Christians can just say Holy Spirit and not give an outline of what that is, right? And I feel like you just did a a phenomenal job um explaining that. And I mean, and now you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, >> right? Right. >> You're up at this camp, you get struck by lightning kind of thing, right? I mean what did change happen at that camp too? >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Like from that moment on was like massive amounts of change. You know I came back and it was like everyone on my campus any friends that I had they all knew I was different. >> Yeah. >> And some of them were skeptical. you know, oh, you're just going to that church to pick up chicks or, you know, they would say things like that or, oh, you think, you know, people that I wouldn't hang out with anymore. Oh, you think you're better than me. And and I was like, it's not that. >> It's not that. >> Uh, you know, but >> I didn't really honestly worry about it too much if I'm like, "Yeah, >> Jesus doesn't want me over there." >> Yeah. >> I'm getting led over here. >> And so, this is who leads me now. this is who's with me all the time. >> Um, so have have you ever read the book um, Hines's Feet on High Places? >> I don't think I have. >> So it's it's just um I I I think I've talked about it a lot in the in the recent podcast that we've done as well too, but it's just like >> it is one of the most influential books that I've ever read. Okay. >> But it's this this whole story >> of the good shepherd, >> right? And the good shepherd goes down into the valley and finds the the main character whose name is Much afraid. >> Oh wow. >> And the good shepherd goes into the valley and sees this this girl and he says, "Poor little Much afraid. >> Come with me and I will take you to the high places. >> Let's go." >> And it's just this up and down story. >> Beautiful. Yeah. of of them traveling. >> I'm gonna have to check that out. I just taught on Psalm 23. So, yes, that's literally Psalm 23. You know, >> within the book, they're going and there's ups and downs and there's hills and there's valleys and all these kind of things. And as they get as they get a little further into the journey, the good shepherd is walking with with much afraid. They're walking in step. And the good shepherd finally turns to her and he says, "Hey, I'm not going to be able to be right here with you physically. You won't see me, >> but any time along this journey, you call for me and I will be there." >> Nice. >> And he says, "But in my place as your guide right now along this journey, I'm giving you two guides. They are my trusted servants and I have handpicked them for you. He says their names are sorrow and suffering >> and they will be your guides to the high places. >> Nice. >> And it's like >> so good. Okay. I got to check that out. >> I read the book last year. Blew my mind. >> Sounds like that's right up my alley for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. know, you have all this transformation and you go back to to your hometown and everybody's like, "What the heck is going on, dude?" >> Um, and I mean, let's let's keep going from here. You said that that that girl that invited you, she became your wife later on. Was that like a >> hey, now I got the Holy Spirit. Let's go. >> Well, yeah, that was like, you know, there was a from that camp there's like a lot of like just friendships that happen. you know, you cuz a lot of people were transformed together. >> Yeah. >> Like God met people up at that place and we had this shared experience. So you come back >> and there's just hanging out in a group literally every single night. >> Um and you know that's when relationships you know developed. Yeah. So um kind of our relationship as friends just hanging out in groups and the group like this, you know, smaller and smaller and smaller till >> we just keep hanging out you know and eventually started dating. So it was real very like >> just natural, easy, nothing forced like just >> good friends and realizing like man there's there might be something more here you know. >> Yeah. Um, yeah. I actually I actually did two come back and I was like, "Okay, I better get baptized now." >> I wasn't even baptized yet. >> Yeah. >> And so I was like I signed up and I told my mom, "Hey, I'm going to get baptized. You know, >> I'd like you to be there." >> But my mom was like notoriously late. Like three hours late to everything. >> Like I I don't even call that late because usually 3 hours like you've missed the thing. So, um, I was like, "Hey, I'd like you to be there." And it's at, it was at somebody's house and a pool. You know, all the church, a bunch of the church would gather around in the backyard and the pastor would be there. And, you know, they're >> at 11:00 and you told her to be there at 9:00. >> I told her the actual time, you know, which I was like regretting cuz I was like, "Hey, can you just call me last cuz my mom's going to for sure be late, you know?" >> And anyways, get through everybody. Everyone's getting baptized. They finally call my name. I go into the water. I still don't see my mom and I take walk down the steps. I turn around and then, you know, the the pastors kind of put a hand on my shoulder to get ready to baptize me. And then my mom sits down right there at the edge of the pool. Like she made it like literally like perfect timing. >> Wow. >> And they pray for me and baptize me. And I come up and I look over and there's people leading her to Christ. She's like balling and receiving Jesus as I come up out of the water for my baptism. It was like it was incredible, man. To that I wish I had met glasses on, right? >> To capture that moment, you know? I'm just like >> metagasses baptism, dude. You start to do that church, man. >> I might start that at my church. Here, put these on. >> Would you receive for Jesus? Okay, put these on. Um, but it was it was so powerful, dude, to look over, see my mom >> um receiving Jesus and and her life radically changed from that moment on. >> Uh, like my siblings were quite a few years younger than me, you know, 7 10 12 years younger than me. So, >> um, they got to grow up, you know, with uh with Jesus in the house, you know, from that point. From that point on, my mom was was a onfire Christian as >> like devoted to Jesus and and you know >> part of the church and telling her whole family. >> I think from me getting saved and then her it's honestly probably like 40 people in my family got saved and baptized. >> Wow. >> Like from from that moment on. >> Wow. So it literally like changing the you know trajectory of our whole family line. >> Yeah. >> You know of whole family units coming to Jesus like in our family. >> Wow. >> So it was pretty >> Have you ever heard of a Have you ever heard of an OOS map? >> No. Okay. So, it's it's a thing that um E3 Ministries, I'm not sure if you're familiar with them, but they they have a couple amazing evangelism tools and different things, but one of the things that that they do, and we do this at at my church um pretty pretty regularly, is you draw a circle and then you put your name in the middle of that circle. >> Okay? >> Right? And then with a little line in the news circle all around you, you will write the names almost like this guy that prayed for you in his Bible. You'll write the names of people that God has placed into your life that don't know him yet. >> And then, and this is I just love this and this is what made me think of it. Around their circles, you write all of the people around them that don't know Jesus that would come to know Jesus if they got saved. Yeah, that's beautiful. >> And it's just like this map just >> just starts expanding, right? >> Um beyond what uh beyond what we could could think, just like what you're talking about. Who would have known that you having this encounter with Jesus, giving your life to him, >> would cause this crazy ripple effect within your whole family. >> It's crazy. It's wild. It's unexpected. It's uh you know only God could orchestrate something like this. >> Yeah. >> It's funny because you know although I had my mom single mom I still felt I I call it like I felt orphaned growing up you know as like half of >> like there was half missing you know and that affected me. And um you know, God God has a sense of humor and he's very intentional about how he restores our brokenness and pain. >> Um you know, you're talking to somebody who felt like fatherless and orphaned and now I'm a father of five. I pastor at Father's House OC. I have three adopted kids out of foster care. Like none of this was like my orchestrating like literally you wake up one day, you're like, "Wait a minute. >> You've really redeemed every part of my life." >> And that's what happens when you say, "Yeah, I will surrender my life to Jesus." He starts working. >> Thing is like so many people think like, "Oh, well, I have to like follow these rules or do these things or I'm going to have to." When you surrender to him, he starts working. >> His what he's done starts working. >> Wow. >> And uh yeah, it's it's like literally a an adventure uh every single day. Like I don't know what we're going to do, but I'm going to follow him. He knows what we're going to do. >> And you watch things unfold and come together. and he's with you in the hard times, in the celebrations, and you just keep seeing this this this uh amazing story unfold in you of his love and redemption and um res restoration and healing and all the things that you think are so bad. He's like, >> I'm going to turn that for good one bit at a time. And that starts spreading to people around you, >> you know, as you start impacting not even knowing it, impacting people around you and >> it starts happening to them. >> Yeah. >> Um so yeah, it's >> it blows my mind. >> So could you just just for a minute cuz this is this is amazing, Tim. I'm I'm just really um and I'm just blessed that your vulnerability too just coming in and and talking how it how it is, right? And sharing your story. >> Now, you talked a second ago about out about about um being in that place where you were feeling fatherless. You felt like um you were alone at the top of the at the top of the ladders. You're like, man, there's nothing here. This isn't the point. Right. Um, so could you look at that camera and could you kind of talk to that person that might be experiencing those things? And I mean, what would your advice be to that person from what you've experienced to maybe let them know they're they're not alone? >> Yeah, that's a beautiful question. And I think, you know, someone is watching this and so many people, it is crazy. I've met so many people over the years that um have have were raised without a father. And it's not just your father was like literally not there. Sometimes your father's there and you're not connected or sometimes your father's there and there's like abuse or a hard relationship and there's just you feel like man there's no love and connection there. And that also feels like fatherlessness. Like you're growing up with that. you're growing up with that void and that wound. And I I think I would I would keep it so simple. Um because Jesus kept it simple for me. He came to me in the place of fatherlessness and said, "Son, I love you." And it's the same this is the this is what I preach in my church. This is what I share with anyone I meet that's experiencing like hard times or broken times or they're feeling lost or directionless or they have feel like they have no purpose. They feel like they have no hope. The answer to all of that is Jesus saying, "Son, I love you. I love you." And I can say with confidence, if he is saying that to me with confidence, he can say that to the whole world. son, daughter, I love you. And at that moment, if you'll receive that from him, uh he will change your life. And I hope that that brings hope um to somebody that um God does love us and he will change our life. And you'll be so surprised by one act of okay, God. I'll put it this way. I have a my youngest son. He wanted to um he wanted to stay at his cousin's house. >> And he's kind of a wild kid, you know. >> Your son? >> Yes. And >> it's like um we're like I don't know if the if the aunt and uncle's going to want to put up with his wildness, you know. And I was like, "No, don't play. They're going to say no. Like >> it's been a long week. Like don't count on it." And he stops. He goes, "Dad, give Jesus a chance." And I was like, "Okay, you got me on that one. Let's let's see what he does." You know, and and uh he got to stay the night. He did. >> So, uh I'll say this, give Jesus a chance. Like, he'll change your life. And um and he loves us. He really does like actually love and care for us >> like no one else could ever do. >> And uh I began to start learning that it was the beginning. When he said to me, "Son, I love you." That was the beginning. I couldn't even I'm still understanding that statement today. >> There's still events h it's going to happen probably for eternity. There's still events happening right now where I'm still discovering, oh my gosh, that's still true. >> Like, it wasn't something I'm getting past. It wasn't something I'm growing out of. It's something it's deepening every day. >> Yeah. >> Have you Have you read Fredathered by God by Jonathan Eldridge? >> Have I? I've read a bunch of his books, but I'm not sure if I read that specific one. So it's just as you're talking and and and about these different moments that are coming up in in life throughout life since that since that time this book father by God talks about the the six stages of being a man. >> Yes. Okay. Yeah. I have read this for sure. >> And he's like hey God initiates you. >> Right. Right. >> We hope we we we long for our earthly fathers to initiate us into each of these different >> Right. um each of these different steps of being a man. But when that doesn't happen, right, how how can that perfectly happen? And and how Jonathan Eldridge explains it is being fathered by God that he initiates you into those different seasons of being a man. >> Oh, dude. Yeah, that book is >> right on with what you're saying. >> Yeah. 100%. Yes. It's so good. >> Yeah. Yeah. I He really will. I think it's such a I don't know when that book is written, but initiation couldn't be a hotter topic as far as I'm concerned. >> Um there's just it's one of the I think >> missing things in our culture is there's no initiation. Young people are not being initiated by >> their fathers, by their parents, and bringing them up into something. You know, I think that the difference, the cultural difference that's happening right now is there's less initiation and more just exposure, >> right? 100%. >> Where there's not like I mean, we talked about, you know, topics of sex or these different things where it's like, man, these these kids there's no talking about it. There's all this. It's just exposure, >> right? >> And so they're they're absorbing from watching these other things, >> right, on social media, just lessons of life, >> right? They're just getting them from from scrolling versus being initiated into those things by parents, right? >> Yeah. Just uh >> Yeah, it's definitely I don't know. It's something that I pray to be a part of a solution. Yeah. >> Being present, being being available. Uh it's something that I wrestle with. How how do you initiate? How do you bring up people? um how do you walk with people, you know, and >> um it's the most it's one of the most important >> things that there is. It's like, you know, really does consume. That's why at the beginning we talked about jiu-jitsu and I said I wish church was more like jiu-jitsu. This is what I'm talking about >> is >> jiujitsu like there's an initiation that happens, you know, someone comes in as a white belt. >> Yeah. you know, and you got to basically go around the room and get smashed. And but along the way, each one of those roles, it might have been terrible, but then someone's like, "Hey, next time try this." >> We could just do a belt system, but for Christianity, >> oh, we would mess that up so bad cuz jiu-jitsu is already messing it up so bad, too. >> Oh, that's so good, man. The last thing I just I just love to ask this question. Um, you growing up the way that you did and now being the father to five children, >> three of which are adopted out of the foster care system. I mean, how did you learn to be a father? That's a great I I love that question. Um because honestly, it's uh you know a struggle. It was a struggle for many years. Uh I even so much so that there was you know I didn't even want to have kids. I was like uh my wife very much wanted to have kids and I was like internally I'm thinking oh gosh don't do this. you you don't know what you're doing >> and 100% struggled with feeling like adequate as as a father, you know, and to the point where it's like I it was honestly scary >> to be like, "Oh gosh, we're going to have kids, you know, and I'm going to have to be the father." >> Yeah. >> And I don't know. I have I don't know what that looks like. >> There's no like, "Hey, let's check the old playbook." >> Yeah. you know, what did my dad do? >> Yeah. >> There, you know, it was all fresh uh from scratch, you know. >> Um and I I was, you know, probably four kids into this thing. And uh you know, I had you two my two oldest and two adopted at the time or actually they were foster kids at the time before we adopted them. >> And I was just praying like, "God, I'm so over my head. like you, >> you know, I don't know what's going on as far as fathering, parenting, you know, like I I need your help. I need your grace. Like, I need you to tell me what to do, you know, cuz there's new challenges here that I've never faced before. And >> I was feeling pretty good about the first two and now that there's four, like I'm not feeling too good, you know, like I'm outmanned, outnumbered, outgunned here. >> Yeah. And it's it's beyond uh like I'm just I'm I'm treading water barely, you know. >> And so I just I used to take um in that when I lived at that particular house that we were in, I would take like walks a lot and just pray and talk to God and listen to scripture in my headphones and um I was just praying, "Teach me to be a father." That was just my single prayer. Teach me to be a father. Teach me to be I mean I have five four kids and I this is my prayer. Teach me to be a father. And the Lord I I really felt the Lord he in that moment um speak to me and he said if you want to be if you want me to teach you to be a father first learn to be a son. And I was like okay. Um and I just began to honestly meditate and think about that. And um I discovered because I was in ministry. I was already a senior pastor. I had four kids. already been married a good amount of time. >> Yeah. >> But I did have this feeling of inadequacy of >> doing the thing I'm already doing, you know. >> And I realized that there was still places where I was operating separate from him, >> doing it in my own striving, my own effort, my own okay, I got it, Dad. Now you stay over there type of thing, you know. And um where I was treating God as my boss and I was an employee. >> M >> and and and I had this vision in uh in this time where it was like there's this tractor and he's driving the tractor and I'm on his lap and he's steering the tractor and I'm there with him. He's actually doing the work. I'm along for the ride. M >> and it was like I want you to in that time in that season of my life he really helped a place a deeper place even get transformed of where I would just there was portions of my life where he was separate from that's hard to describe but I didn't feel like he was in there I felt like I had to do it on my own >> and he wanted to teach me there's no place you're on your own ever >> um and fathering is one of those so to be a good father, you need to be a son. You need to be sitting on my lap as my son. >> Wow. >> When if you're out there being an employee, of course you're going to feel like you don't know how to father. >> Yeah. >> You need your father to father. >> Man, that that hits me so hard. Honestly, just on a personal level, I'm like, dude, I So, I mean, I got two kids. I got a 2-year-old and a 5-month-old, and like it I'm just I'm learning right now, dude. It's I'm right in the middle of that. But it's also one of those things my my dad >> I I was raised to be really independent, right? My parents, they set me up to basically be like, "Hey, like you can do it. >> Go crush it. Go crush it. You can do this." You know, we had a long old list of chores that we had to get done every day and whatever. And it was like that was the first example of being like, "Hey, this is your work. >> It's on you to get this done." >> Right? And it it taught me to be um to be independent, to to to work, to do these different things. We were also homeschooled, which was really really helpful for all that, right? >> Um >> and so my mom wasn't like helicoptering over my work unless it didn't get done, right? But just for me personally, that wasn't, you know, I would get my stuff done. Um, but it's really interesting because it's been like my relationship with my dad is one of those things where it's like, "Hey, like son, we're we're, you know, we're like this. We're growing up. We're walking hand in hand. We're around all the time." And it's like, "Hey, you know, you're getting into junior high. You're getting into high school. You got saved. You're you're becoming your own man." All these kind of things. And it's like the older I get, which I think this is a good thing, is the more independent I get and kind of being like, "Hey, dad, like >> you you raised me. You you set me up to do these things. Now it's like I'm I'm going I'm being released to act the way that you've taught me to act. That's a beautiful thing, right? >> To do the things." I think that is totally the way that it should be to train up your son in the way that he should go, all those kind of things. But I find myself applying that same logic to God, >> right? >> Where I'm kind of like, "Yeah, God, we were super tight when I first got saved, man. We walked. >> I was just a baby. I didn't know what to do. I was just, you know, you were feeding me milk cuz that's what I needed and all these kind of things." And it's almost like I find myself going like you're talking about, "Hey, like, Dad, I I got this. Let me try this. Right. And being like equating >> maturity >> overall maturity >> to separation from father. >> Right. Does that make sense? Totally makes sense. >> So interesting. So what you're saying right now of being like no son >> come sit on my lap and like this whole thing is just like >> that it hits me man. >> Right. And the example we have is Jesus. M >> I don't say anything on my own. I say what the father tells me to say. I don't do anything >> the that I don't see the father doing. >> Yeah. >> Like that's our example. He's never said Yeah. Jesus like never separated from his father. >> Yeah. >> And for me it hits home especially because >> like you know my mentality was like survival, >> right? I gotta I'm responsible for my survival, for staying alive, for getting through >> and you know it's been a journey of unraveling that saying actually >> no he's responsible for that. Wow >> and I got to trust him and rest in that. >> I'm not surviving anymore. Matter of fact, I have abundant life. >> Wow. And so, uh, that that journey of like finding this inadequacy as a father was part of my my kids helped heal me. >> They they helped expose a a place where I wasn't letting God in. >> Wow. >> And then I got to a breaking point of, "Father, teach me how to father." And then he's like, "Well, let's get to the real issue. You're not an employee. You're a son." >> Yeah. >> Hop up. >> Yeah. >> I'm like, "Oh. Oh, this is kind of awkward. I'm not used to this, you know. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, and there was a journey of like resting in that place, being in that place, learning how to be a son. And when I the more I learned how to be a son, >> it was like now I was hearing him in my fathering, hearing that direction that I was getting other places, right? Hey, get rid of this and do that. And that was all fun. But then it would be fathering and I'd be like, I'm not hearing anything. I'm I'm out here by myself. And all of a sudden, >> wait, this is not on me alone. I have a father who's with me. >> Wow. >> And he's going to tell me what to do in this, and I can trust him. I can trust him with my fathering. >> Matter of fact, if I even make a mistake, his grace is going to cover it. >> Yeah. >> He's going to pick me back up and help me to get going again. >> Wow. And so, yeah, that's that was kind of like my I mean, there's a lot there's a lot there with bothering and and not feeling adequate and >> all that stuff, but that's been uh I'm still again I'm still on the journey of understanding, son, I love you. I'm still on the journey of learn to be a son. >> Yeah. >> I haven't arrived. >> Yeah. >> I don't think there's even arriving. >> Yeah. Like every I'm constantly finding the depth of those things like that they go deeper. >> Yeah. >> And that I'm even there's even places I'm reserving from him that I don't even know about right this moment. >> Mhm. >> And there'll be an invitation. I'll be maybe get to a breaking point and he'll say, "Let me in." >> Yeah. >> Learn to be a son in that place now. >> You know, and it's like, >> wow. The heart breaks again and it's like, oh, fills up again. It hurts and it breaks and it fills up all at the same time. Does that make sense? >> It does. >> It's like painfully good. >> Yeah. >> Like, oh, I didn't even know I need this. Gosh, I can't believe I'm here again. >> But, man, this is the best place to be. >> Wow. >> So, yeah, that's kind of um >> a bit of of where I'm still at. >> Yeah. >> I'm not going to claim any expertise. >> Yeah. >> At all. >> Absolutely. But it's you you have um you have these experiences and uh a way to communicate them. So, I'm really just >> thankful that you were um willing to come on and and share a little bit of your story. >> I think this was awesome, >> dude. I I love what I love what you're doing, man. And uh that's why you told me about about the podcast and I'm like, dude, just count me in. Yeah. >> So, I think this is great. Keep doing it. And I love I love what you you're doing, your family's doing. >> It's like it's it's inspiring, dude. >> It's really inspiring. So, this is this is great. >> Likewise, man. >> Yeah. Tim, thank you so much >> coming on the podcast, man. >> Of course. And if you are watching and you are in a similar spot um of of feeling um like you're fatherless or abandoned or alone um or that you you're at the top of the ladder and realize that there's um nothing there that's going to satisfy um or if you're entering into fatherhood and feeling inadequate and you're you're um learning these these things from from God to to be a son and you need some encouragement Um, we are here for you. Um, a a great place to go is the your jiu-jitsu gym or Father's House OC, right? Come check out >> Tim's Church. >> Um, and we're also here for you, too. If you got a story, if you got to get something off your chest, that's what our comment section is for. So, if this helped you, then please like, subscribe. That helps us out a lot, allows us to continue to do this podcast. And uh yeah, that's been the Pivot or Die podcast. Tim, thank you so much, man. >> Let's go. This is awesome. >> Yeah, >> maybe we'll see you on another one. >> Let's go anytime. >> Cuz there's there's a gap that we skipped over, too. >> Such a gap. Such a gap, bro.