Pivot Or Die

He just walked up to me kind of like candy. He like looked me up and down. He was like, "Hunter." [music] And I was like, "What's up? How's it going?" And uh he was like, "You need a bigger god." At first, I was like, "Well, I'm not going to go just look at this. I'm going to look at everything." So, I started [music] looking into the Quran. I started looking into Judaism. I started looking at like into Hinduism. I started looking into a lot of [music] these thousands of other little like weird pagan kind of like, you know, schools of thought. But it was all happening [music] under my nose. Like subconsciously, it was just this nature was creeping back in. The thought came of that experience. [music] It's the night I try to take my life where it's like, dude, you're going to end up right back there if you don't get honest right now. I'd like to welcome you to this episode of the Pivot or Die podcast. My name is Seth. I get to host this show. I'm so happy that you're here. Um, we are going to be diving into the second episode with Hunter Buren. If you have not listened to the first episode, we're going to review it a little bit at the beginning of of this podcast, but um it's a gnarly story from Hunter telling his life story. There's a lot of context there for what we're about to dive into today. So, this is the second part of his story. If you haven't listened to the first part, maybe go listen to it if you would like. But we are going to dive into topics surrounding uh recovery and surrounding getting off of alcohol and different substances. We're going to talk about honestly we we dive into uh Hunter's analysis of all of the various religions that exist in the world. He talks about uh Hinduism and Buddhism and he talks about diving into Judaism and into the the Muslim faith and and uh you know going into to atheism and all these different things whatever he dives into him and does this full analysis before he finally realizes there's this Jesus guy that is showing up everywhere and I can't get away from him. and every every religion all over the place, they're disagreeing about this one guy, Jesus. Go listen to that part. It's amazing. Um, yeah, I'm just we're we're going to dive in. It's going to be unbelievably incredible. But I will say if you are triggered by some of these things, we do talk about a suicide attempt that that Hunter experienced that's in the very beginning. That's recapping where we left off in the last episode. If those things are triggering for you, maybe go watch another one of our episodes. But if you're still here, then I want to welcome you. I want to tell you, buckle in. This is going to be an amazing conversation. We go for about two and a half hours. It's awesome. We're going to break it up into clips, too. If you don't have that much time and you want to hear about the the cool subjects that we end up talking about with kind of the fluff taken out, then uh you can go watch those clips. If you want to stay for this the entirety of this conversation, then welcome. Come on, let's do it. If you're not subscribed, hit that subscribe button. If this video was helpful to you, leave a like. And genuinely, if you can relate to this story, please leave a comment below and tell us what you got from this. If you have questions after this, please comment below. That helps us to get out there and make a bigger impact, get this story out to more people. Here's the Hunter Burson podcast, part two. Thanks for watching. >> Name of the podcast is pretty fitting for yeah, >> the carnage that I just carpet bombed on the last podcast and now we're at the pivot moment where now we're like, you know, hopefully getting to get some good news. Obviously, I'm still alive and still here today, but uh >> yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. I get a chance. I'm fortunate by God's grace to be able to to speak a lot about uh my story and sometimes I get jaded to it where it's just it's my story. It's like we all have a story and so you kind of like >> forget like or get jaded to the details of like, oh yeah, that really happened and that was like that is heavy. Like I'll I'll kind of candidly as a matter of fact way tell people sometimes about details of like my life and things that I've done and I like they have to like pick their jaw up off the floor and like that happened to you and I'm like yeah kind of I've processed and and healed from you know that. But yeah, just like a I guess like a clip and a playbyplay. like yeah I I um I I am a what's considered an an alcoholic um or you know identify as an alcoholic. I identify as drug addict, garbage disposal, broken flawed human and and you know that's the nature of how my sin manifested itself uh in a way that is that required me to to need a solution for that. I guess too it's a prog I believe it's a progressive illness. The American Medical Association classifies it as a disease. That was a really hard thing for me to ac accept. But I do believe that I am a sufferer where I have some form of abnormal reaction to drugs and alcohol where some people start to feel the effects and uh have the nature or knowledge to either back off or to abstain or to structure and control it. And I have zero control over that. And uh it didn't happen like that overnight. It progressed from the time when I had my first drink at 10:00. kind of watched that uh in my family and it worked for me. It provided a solution to a lot of what we talked about, you know, last time and and progressively over the course of the better part of a decade, it slowly um grew uh like a tumor and just slowly started to um yeah become the most important thing in my life. Um, >> I think just in a synopsis way, I mean, I we don't need to get back in the war stories of like DUI, crash cars, going to jail, all the stuff, you know, you can check out the Laugh podcast if you want to hear all the nitty-gritty details. I don't usually get to talk in depth about all that stuff. So, that was kind of a lot for me. But, um, I think in a good way of what I've heard, you know, how it's been kind of articulated is that most normal people, um, adjust their drinking. You know, everybody sometimes goes through experimental phases in their teenage years of like, you know, having alcohol or trying different things, hopefully not exposed to two gnarly, you know, hard drugs and stuff, but it's a reality for a lot of people. Most normal people, right, depending on your definition of what that looks like, but the greater generalization of the population will adjust their drinking and drug use to meet their goals and aspirations. As they mature and grow and have families and go to college and start to, you know, advance in their careers, they start to dial that back to meet their goals and aspirations. And for me, I adjusted and compromised my goals and aspirations to meet my drinking. And that is like the reality of slowly it climbing the totem pole where it became really the only normal life that I had and really the only thing that uh gave me a sense of ease and comfort. as I mean you could you could say that I lived you know one might say to drink like for a while where that was like the >> raging precedent and I worshiped it you know and it was the forefront of what was keeping me together and killing me at the same time and uh yeah I equivocally burned my life to the ground you know one might one might say so >> and I mean we we get through all of that in this last podcast and then we get to this particular moment um where I mean The line that sticks in my head is you said I had a Bible in one hand and I had a belt in the other hand and I was ready to kill myself because I had no hope. Right. And so take us just real quick context for that moment. Take us there and then let's go from there and did the rest of your story. >> Yeah. So like I said it was a progressive thing. I didn't start as an alcoholic overnight. It progressed from that social kind of experimentation as a child and grew into my adulthood to where it eventually led me to the position of where I had lost control. Uh, I had crossed that invisible line that we talked about where I could like stop or moderate when given a sufficient reason. But at that point, I had zero choice. I had lost the power to be able to choose whether or not I was going to take a drink. And when I did take a drink, I didn't know when I was going to stop. And I didn't know how long the bender was going to last until I came to um, and it just led to, you know, just a bleak uh, pitiful, incomprehensible demoralization of like where my life had boiled to where I needed help. And I had been to treatment centers before by, you know, parents and like a nudge from the judge, maybe from like the court systems and a lot of like heat, you know, on my back where I was just trying to go and clean up the mess and just get everything my ducks in a row to where I could go back out, but I never really understood alcoholism. But this time, I knew that it was done and I knew that like I had a problem. I knew I couldn't stop it. I had faced the reality. Like um Romans talks a lot about uh Paul has this writing in Romans 1 where he talks about the nature of how sin had manifested itself amongst this group of people and essentially God gave them to their own desires. Like it was like he allowed them to come to the end of themselves and like as >> punishment by their own decision he just gave them up to their own desires and that was kind of the point. And when I reached that point all hope was lost. It was like >> you know there wasn't just a leak in the boat. It was like the whole boat had sunk already and I was trying to still it's like I had like a little little Tikes bucket and I was still trying to get the water out and it was just you know it's like dude accept the fact that it sunk and I I I had never been a depressed uh person maybe had some mild like you know linkages of depression but I wasn't ever suicidal and had suicidal ideations but at this [snorts] point in my life that had been very um prominent in my mind and it had I got [snorts] to that point where like there was no other way out no other solution I had no other option, no coping mechanisms, no God, no family, everything had like all of my resources and everything in life had been stripped away to where it was like the only good idea that I had was to take my own life. Like that seemed like the easy escape. It seemed like the only way out of this like it was just this >> like it seemed like the only way to get it to stop cuz I couldn't do it on my own anymore. And so yeah, I had reached that point. I was in a detox. I had gone back to treatment and I had relapsed like four times while I was there and just kept telling on myself to [laughter] most people when they go to treatment if they're like relapsing. There's a lot of people who like go in, I did this before, like you come, you want to sneak it. You don't want like, you know, your therapist or like the the staff to know. So, you'll like try to sneak it. I would go get belligerently drunk. And I would just come straight to like the people that were running the house and stuff and be like, I'm got loaded again. I don't know what to do. [laughter] I can't stop. Help me. And I would just give them my bottle and give them all my paraphernalia and just tell on myself cuz like I wanted to stop. >> But I was drinking against my own will. >> Literally like against what I wanted. Like and uh >> Yeah. And so it it had reached that point where I made a plan. and I wrote a letter to my family and and some friends and uh yeah, I boarded up the door in this little treatment center in Costa Mesa and and I made a plan and and uh I had gone to some you know uh recovery meetings and kind of been in the sphere of where people started to talk about prayer and like spirituality and that was a very foreign sensitive topic for me. I you know I wasn't an atheist but I was definitely a militant agnostic as one might say and I was very uh antagonistic towards the idea of God. I think from a victim mentality where it was like, you know, if there is a God, he hasn't done anything for me, which is a very immature childlike perception. But that was just where I was at. But I had reached that point. And I remember my mom, I think I talked about she had packed a [gasps] >> a Bible in the suitcase that she gave me when they kicked me out of the house. And I never knew it. It was in this suitcase. It was in one of those like hidden little zipper pockets on the bottom. She had packed this Bible that uh some youth pastor had gifted to them to try to give to me. And uh and I remember seeing that in that little moment in my brain and just all the desperateness and the calamity and chaos that was going on. I saw that and I grabbed it and I had a belt in one hand and a Bible in the other and I hit my knees for the first time and said some Hail Mary prayer and and if there is a God like show me why I should be alive cuz I don't feel like anyone would miss me. I don't feel like this life's worth living anymore and I cannot go on like this. like if this is the life that I'm living, if this is all that there is, if this is what has happened to me, like I there's no other I can't live this way anymore. I cannot stand another day uh to wake up in this vicious cycle all over again. And um I talked about it in detail last time like I had I I didn't have a white light burning bush like euphoric lifted off the ground experience, but it had gone from that moment of calamity and slideshow of doom and gloom in my head and all the remorse, guilt, shame, pity and regret uh to where all of a sudden I said that prayer and in the next moment when I opened my eyes through tears, through everything, it was just silence. It was like a deafening silence and I could hear like a pin drop in the room. I could hear this like alarm clock ticking. M >> and I could hear a bird chirp outside. There was some dude in the kitchen like grabbing plates and I could remember hearing him like get into a cabinet and like it had been so long since I had heard >> background noise >> background noise. And so that was like a heavy moment for me. And then um yeah, that was the that was the pivot moment and uh I was immediately weirded out. I was very like what is that? And I was trying it was almost like I was trying to draw on those thoughts again where I was like no you made a plan like let's go you know go through with this. I was so skeptical where I was literally like in the prayer I was like this isn't going to work. nothing's gonna happen. There is nobody listening to me. But I've never tried this before. >> Like the earnest question I asked myself even before I said that prayer is like I'd heard a bunch of people whether it was at a meeting or at the treatment center or other people talking who are in recovery or sober you know and my parents even like people are praying for you whatever talk talk about prayer and and uh when I was really you know at the the cliff's edge like I I finally got honest with myself. I think a lot of addicts and alcoholics, we all suffer from a commonality of like a diluted delusional like full flight from reality sense of being of where we have this, you know, perception of what our lives look like and what reality is that's very far from the truth and it's warped by a lot of our own defects and uh perceptions and and trauma and whatever. It's like, you know, like the analogy of like when you look at like little kids, little kids are like the picture of like innocence, right? They're not all like innocent obviously, you know, little arguments, little tiffs, you know, crying and tantrums and things, but you see this kind of innocence and this puress in children. And over the time in my life, like it was like it's like a windshield where it starts off as really clean, but then over time >> it had just gathered so much debris to where I couldn't even see out of it anymore. Um, and when I said that prayer, it was like suddenly this windshield got like wiped for a second and I could see something and it was just some form of direction. And like I said, it wasn't like a euphoric, like I didn't hear an audible voice. Uh, but it was just much like now, hindsight being 2020, looking back now, I can see that that was God giving me a a moment of clarity. It's like giving me a breath of fresh air. It's like I was drowning and just like literally about to go under the surface of the water. And it's like that uh parable or not parable, the um the story in the Gospels where the the disciples are on the the boat at at sea um and the waves are coming in and and uh there's two of them. There's two different accounts. There's the one where Jesus is asleep on the boat and he wakes up and the disciples are freaking out. They think they're going to die and he just says, "Be still." And the storm just calms and like the water is immediately glassy. That's like what happened to my brain. Or it's like the same analogy when Jesus meets them out when they're out on the sea and Jesus is walking on the water and uh Peter goes out to meet him and he goes to drown when he looks at it. And it's literally like God just grabbed me in that moment. And uh I could take a breath for the first time. And uh >> yeah, that was that was kind of that pivoting moment. And I remember vividly, again, it wasn't like an audible voice, but I know it wasn't my own thought cuz I hated recovery meetings. I had hated >> going to these groups. I hated I I just I just had a lack of understanding, a lot of ignorance, and a lot of pride. I prided myself to be like an intellectual. But when you looked at the result of my life, it's like that's where that had led me. Me running my own life led me to to that point there. So it's like, you know, um, who am I kidding? And, uh, but it was literally the next thought after I said that, I had cracked open the Bible. I was like just weirded out. I was like, what is that? This is just awkward. I was trying to draw on those thoughts and it just wasn't coming. Nothing was there. It was like I I just couldn't seem to remember what I was thinking about. I wasn't thinking about killing myself anymore. I wasn't like stoked on life or anything, but it was just again silence. Yeah. And uh >> I had opened up the Bible. I don't recommend this for people who are like seeking things spiritually, but sometimes it works. I've seen it in some people. God will meet you wherever you're at. I think he'll intervene in a way where your heart is postured towards a a degree of willingness. Uh where I just flipped it open like a magic eightball. And I landed on Job chapter 3. And uh for those of you who haven't maybe read that story or aren't familiar with it, it's it's the the chapter where you know the story of Job, he loses everything and and uh you know, God is allowing Satan to test him and uh Job is struck down by losing everything imaginable in life. His family uh his children have passed away. He's lost his uh his home and his wealth and has soarses on his body and he's like literally like scraping his body with like pottery and just like his wife comes and tells him to just curse God and die. like why are you holding on to your pride? And and Job laments and uh or cries out in like a wasteland of of self-pity where he essentially protests to God like why did you let me live this life? Like I cannot go on this way. And I just started to read it where it was exactly how I was feeling. It was like I wish I would have died at birth. Like why couldn't I have just been a stillborn? Like why couldn't I have not just died at at childbirth? Like why why have I lived this life? And and and I I just feel so far from anything worthwhile. It was just Job lamenting and I I remember reading it and just that's when I had this like tangible like whoa like spiritual encounter where it was just like whatever it is I was like this is too much of a coincidence like it just >> obliterated and evaporated >> um any sense of like pride doubt like it wasn't like I just became this full-fledged believer but it was just I was I couldn't deny what I was feeling and witnessing and just seeing that was just too uh just tangibly accurate. And I remember just weeping and feeling just a hand of peace, I guess, is the best way I can describe it. Back then, I didn't have the verbiage. Like now on the walk that I've been, I can look back hindsight and I can articulate and describe it a lot better cuz I've just replayed it so many times. Um >> but it was literally just like I I finally surrendered. Like I finally like threw in the white flag. I finally just like I just crumbled. It's like Job's response when he's before God and all he can do is just sit down, throw ashes on his head, and just weep in awe of the beauty of of God. And externally, there was nothing that got better. You know, I was still in a treatment center. My life was still in shambles. Externally, nothing had changed. But my there was a glimpse of like that that that I'm not alone. Maybe something someone something out there is hearing me and this is like a little bit of like a sign and a nudge of like, hey, I hear you. And uh and I was just baffled. I didn't know what I was just I didn't know what to think of it. I read it. I remember just reading that. I didn't read the whole chapter. I didn't read till the end when you know Job's restored. But I I read that and it was enough for me to be like, man, maybe there is something like holy crap. Like there might be something out there like this might >> there might like these people who've been telling me about prayer and stuff like this there there might be something to this. There was it was just that. >> And so I mean from from this point you have this encounter. You you know you set the belt down. You open up the Bible. You eventually unboard the door and walk back outside. >> Yeah. Well, I remember the next thought like right after that I just kind of like put the Bible down. It was just like surreal. I'd had like full goosebumps and just like crying like just I mean Kim Kardashian just like weeping and just like trying not to make noise but just like pouring out and weeping and just some like my heart had just kind of like finally had an antenna and there was a connection. It's like I felt like it was like the Hubble telescope like way out there and it's like looking for life or trying to send something back and now all of a sudden something connected or it was like it had been looking for stuff in all the wrong places for so long. Um and there was some form of connection and it like scratched the itch like for the first time and uh it wasn't like permanent but it was just a fleeting like there is this tangible connection. And I remember the next thought, the next thing that happened. I sat there for a second. And you're, you know, when you're like sobbing and you're just kind of exhausted and after that you're just tired and like it's a healthy thing, you know, I think now. And it's like um but I just remember being tired and my my face is raw from like wiping tears and it's just like all salty [snorts] and whatever. And I sat there and it wasn't like I heard an audible voice, but the next thought that popped in my head, like I said, my my brain's still blank. I can't draw on anything. It's just like blank. Like no thoughts are coming in and out. It's just like I'm just forced to be present. It was the first time I feel like in my life that I was just present in the moment that I was in. I wasn't tripping on the past. I wasn't tripping on the future. I was right where my boots were, like right in the middle. My grandma used to tell me that all the time like, "Hunter, you just need to be where your boots are and try to just be present in front of you right now." And that was like the first time I was just tangibly aware of my surroundings. And the next thing that popped in my head, like it wasn't an audible thing, but it literally the best way I can describe it, it was like something unzipped my brain and just put a thought in my head >> and then zipped it back up. It was my own voice. >> I call it I call it airdrop. >> Yeah. Straight up. >> It feels like somebody just air drops a thought into your head. >> It was like and it's fascinating and I've gotten really down the rabbit hole of like consciousness and like what that is like, but it wasn't for me. Like I know in my heart of hearts this wasn't for me cuz I was very restrictive of these thoughts. But the next it was just a simple thought. It was just you need to go to a meeting tomorrow. >> That was it. It was the next thought. It was just direction. It was action. It was just the next tangible step. Go to a meeting tomorrow. That was it. >> And I was like what? What? Like I I hate meetings. I've never been like I don't understand. Like it was just there was no light to the end of the tunnel. There was no like you need to clean up your life. You need to give your life to Jesus. There was no like it was just you need to go to a meeting tomorrow. And it was just that was the only thought that came into my head. And I was like, "That's weird." Okay. And I remember laying down. I was like I kind of got up and I went and put the belt away. I like hung it back up. I unboarded the door and uh and I went I laid back on the bed. It was like the middle of the night. And I I laid on the bed and I was still fully clothed. I didn't even get under the covers. And I I had struggled with insomnia a lot. A lot of people who are in like withdrawal phases and early recovery struggle from like insomnia a lot and my just disregularity of my hormones and and uh >> brain [snorts] composition was just whack. So I hadn't slept in a long time and I was on sleeping medication but I didn't take it that night and uh I remember just I don't even remember going to sleep. I just remember sitting there and just waking up like I had slept better than I had in like years. Like I just like >> and just went into the deepest sleep possible. I just like finally found some like rest. I woke up the next day, sunlight was in the room. Super weird. It was like I was like I woke up at the scene of the crime where I was just kind of like, whoa. Like, what was that last night and it was just kind of weird. And um I wasn't hung over. I wasn't I didn't have a pounding headache. I wasn't like usually at that point in my life like every time I woke up it was like, "Oh crap, another day." It was almost like every time I woke up, whether it was out of a blackout or just waking up, it was just fear and panic was on me. And that morning it wasn't there. Like usually my my normal was like waking up like >> oh crap. All right, we got to go. I don't know. And it was just stress and anxiety and whatever. But that morning it was just like >> again kind of quiet. I got up and I remember leaving and I made some breakfast. I'm looking at people in the treatment center, the guys that are like in the house or whatever and they're like, "Hunter, what's up? Good morning, whatever." And I'm like, "Hey." And I kind of I think everybody could tell. They were like, "You all right? What's going on?" And I'm like, "No, I'm good. Yeah, it's cool." And I just kind of like brushed it off. I went brushed my teeth and I'm like looking in the mirror and I'm like >> something was different. There was just >> you're like did I do it [laughter] >> straight up [gasps] or it's like is this hell? Um no just um >> yeah and it was just weird every I kind of looked like I had seen a ghost I bet. And I was just like yeah I'm good like all right. And I went to group like normal. I went to the morning like process group. I didn't tell anybody. I wasn't going to tell anybody what happened. And uh yeah, and I end up kind of going throughout the day and I and I ended up looking up on online for some resources and I found there was a a local recovery meeting that was meeting at 5:30 that night and I had, you know, cleared my schedule. I didn't have any schedule. I didn't have anything to do. So I was like, I didn't have a car, I didn't have anything. So I walked I that night I made it there and I walked in I was in Costa Mesa and I walked all the way to the peninsula in Newport. Um, and I just hoofed it and I made it and I sat down and I I went to a meeting and yeah, that was the beginning of, you know, the trajectory that changed my life. And, um, I'll get more into the details, you know, uh, >> because I mean, just for for clarification for me, this is just a question I have like that that meeting versus the treatment center that you were at, like were there meetings that were happening like that in the treatment center >> or was it different? >> Well, it's very different. So like um when we're talking about like recovery meetings and versus like the institutions of like treatment centers, like treatment centers is like coupled with like it's it's essentially built like a hospital. California is very different in the fact that they do it in people's homes and there's like a lot of controversy around it. Whatever, good, bad, ugly. Um it's just it's a gnarly industry. Um alcoholics and addiction makes a lot of money through insurance. And so there's just these places we're in Orange County, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some form of sober living and treatment center around here. Like it's just they're everywhere. We're in the mecca of that which is a beautiful thing. >> Swing a dead cat. I don't know if [laughter] I've ever heard that phrase before. >> That's how you know I'm from Texas. That's how my family talks all the time. Just insane phrases. But um yeah, it's like the phrase uh screw the pooch. That doesn't make any sense to me. Especially as a dog trainer. I think I would get fired if I did [laughter] that. But um uh anyways [sighs] um yeah, so I uh so that's an institutional place. It's a medical place. Like you have supervision. People are doing urine analysis. There's staff on uh site that are doing rounds like uh checking where clients are at. They're doing vitals constantly like where you're taking your blood pressure. They're monitoring for like withdrawal symptoms. It's it's essentially a place, a medical facility where they can monitor and help you separate from drugs and alcohol and make sure that you don't have a seizure or make sure that you don't like you know aren't a danger to yourself and other it's a stabilization protocol like where you come in and and are able to like go through those phases observed from people and I know people who have thugged it out didn't have to go to treatment centers and just thugged it out on the couch and withdrawal and sweat and went and kicked dope just like on their grandma's couch and then got up and went. I I couldn't do that. I didn't have really anywhere to go. So I you know I think by the grace of God you know landed in a place like that and uh but the difference is is it's more >> uh in the medical field in the medical fraternity of where it's like a lot more of a a psychological approach psychology there's therapists on staff there's doctors you know that are on site and like it's very clinical in that way some are loose like you know a treatment center in Orange County very much looks different from other places like but there's different types you know it's not like you're in a straight jacket in a gown like there are places like that I went to like, you know, I've been put in like a psychord before where it's like, you know, you're just like have a wristband tag and you're in like a gown. It's kind of like one flew over the cuckoo's nest kind of vibes where you're there. Uh, but this place was like it was a house. It's a residential like house. It's a really nice, you know, neighborhood and whatever. And uh but you go to groups throughout the day and there's therapists and and things like that, but it's not like they give you suggestions and different like things, but it's more of a psychology approach and you're in therapy and and all those are very beautiful good things and there's medication being able to be dished out and you're under like this, you know, uh vital protocol where there's, you know, eyes on you all the time where that Yeah. Go ahead. >> But but then you're saying that this meeting that you then walked to >> was different. How what would be the what would be the the thing that in your mind differs those two things? One being medical and the other being what? Well, there's uh there's a a myriad going on like um 80 years of this recovery of like a recovery community and and anonymous 12step uh meetings and groups and programs that have uh been out there where um >> you know the medical fraternity back in like this dates back to like the 1930s where uh back then alcoholism was very taboo and very misunderstood. It was treated like it was a morality issue and people would get literally like labbotomized and they had electroshock therapy. They would lock people away. They call it being admitted back when we had uh um mental institutions like corporately as a a governmental project in in the United States where you could literally like >> you know get admitted and put essentially like 5150 against your own will to like you know be put in a padded room in a straight jacket and then like >> they didn't know how to treat alcoholism. They saw it as just like people that were going permanently insane and like it was very much akin to like things like schizophrenia and a lot of these misunderstood. We don't barely scratch the surface and really know what alcoholism is and why it manifests itself the way that it does. There's no like uh really clearcut diagnosis in a way. It's very much deeper embedded into the spirit and into the psyche. And like uh prominent psychiatrists back in the day in the 1930s right in like the climate of right preWorld War II um there was that was like the climate of what you would get. But there was a group in a fellowship um the Oxford groups uh was a prominent Christian fellowship that was kind of originated back then who was uh in the scope of like kind of like a nonprofit sphere of where they dealt with these kind of people and it was like a lot of homeless people and they would deal with addicts, they would deal with alcoholics and they had >> a you know way of where it was very uh you know religious and it was very kind of like you need to like surrender your life to God. It was based on some very simple principles of like confession and turning your will in your life over to God, making right the wrongs that you've done, paying back your debts, and then trying to help the next person. There was just a very simple kind of laid out way. It had some like kinks to it of where they had some like profit motive and there was some political influence and it was kind of more loosely structured. That was like this early phase of it. People have been trying to solve the drink problem since man crushed grapes, right? Like for a long time, right? Like even Noah was a drunk and and passed out and and uh this has been a thing, you know, and so we've just been baffled and and uh but for the grace of God, back then there was a group of medical men and back then, you know, and still today there's a lot of pride uh in the medical sphere and influence of people who um take notion and pride in their diagnosis and treatment of alcoholics. But there was a few men uh Dr. Harry Tibo was one. He was a prominent psychiatrist back in the 30s. Um, uh, this guy William D. Silkworth, uh, worked at Towns Hospital in New York, which was like kind of the epitome of like this prominent hospital that, uh, specialized in the treatment and rehabilitation of drug addicts and alcoholics. And they both wrote memoirs and and essentially were admitting for the first time, which was very taboo uh, in that time uh, that they didn't have a solution. And Carl Young was another influential figure in that sphere where he kind of treated and he was like, you know, for people who don't know who Carl Young was, he's very similar and akin to like our present day like Jordan Peterson or uh these other uh psychologists who were very big into like consciousness and very big in groundbreaking work that we kind of have today in the therapeutic community. And they all essentially came to the conclusion that like we don't know how to treat this. We don't know what this is. We don't have an answer. like our ultraodern, you know, sterile scientific method of how we've treated these people. And like a moral approach to this psych psychological evaluation of how we're trying to get people to get sober isn't working. We have barely scratched the surface, if not made no difference at all. And they were admitting it and they were starting to come to this conclusion, right? And uh >> and out of that admittance that they didn't have >> any sort of treatment for this, is that where these anonymous groups kind of came from? >> Yeah. So, a coupled from that birth of like where the Oxford group took place, you know, I'm going to try to not, you know, >> Yeah. Yeah. >> get too deep into it, but uh you can look it up for yourself if you want to like research a lot of this stuff. It's very fascinating and it's very passionate. It's important. It saved my life. So, I I've gone down the rabbit hole of my life like >> owing to that history and learning the roots of like what, you know, has led me to this, you know, position where I'm at today. >> Um but yeah, essentially they came to this conclusion. Carl Young had a patient in whom that he was like treating. Um, uh, he was part of the Rockefeller family, kind of like associated with them, very wealthy, you know, businessman and and, uh, but he was a chronic hope to die alcoholic and >> kind of went and he had enough money to literally reservely put himself under the care of of Carl Young and stay with him in Switzerland for the better part of a year trying to unccor like the deepest recesses of his mind and his childhood and his consciousness to try to like, you know, solve this drink problem so that he could get sober and maintain that. And it just wouldn't work. And essentially these doctor's conclusions when they would meet these alcoholics and these people was essentially telling them that you're hopeless. Like I've never yet seen a person in your state of how you drink recover. Never once. Like they're like we don't see it. It's just like you're essentially doomed. It's like a diagnosis of a terminal illness and we don't have a cure. Sorry. >> And it's that was kind of the conclusion. And um >> and there was men who were at that time uh very prominent figures and men who were in a part of that Oxford group fellowship and they uh were like is there any exception? There was a lot of men who were like there that can't be the the end of my life. This can't be the end. And uh Carl Young is famously quoted for saying well there is exceptions. Um, once in a while, it's very rare when we've see this, we've we have seen people who have had what we call vital spiritual experience or religious conversions where we see them have a spiritual encounter with a uh with, you know, uh, God with Yeah. with religion and with this religious conversion is kind of their clinical way of how they were talking about, you know, essentially what I just described in my own personal walk of what that looks like where all of a sudden these men go from hope to die alcoholics. have this supernatural encounter with uh you know a higher power or with God and now all of a sudden they have these new set of principles that dominate them and they were able to go anywhere a free man can go and now all of a sudden you see them walk out of this grave and they live their lives and we don't know what it is. It's a phenomenon. We have absolutely no way. Carl Young was even telling to one of his patients like I've been trying to kind of elicit that in you but uh I I don't really have I'm not equipped for that. And that was kind of the conclusion of a lot of those people. So out of that birthed with the influence from the Oxford group, a lot of uh priests at the time, there was uh you know Sam Shoemaker, there was some other influential figures that you can like look up into the history and research that they formed these groups that we needed to do something for alcoholism and out of that birthed from a lot of biblical influence and a lot of spiritual um and psychological and medical opinion. kind of Frankenstein stitched together this anonymous fellowship and um from that bore the start of people starting to get sober and there was a rapid shift. It was uh you can look it up. There was like it was nationally um you know written in the Saturday Evening Post and uh there was uh articles being released and this new solution or this new uh cure is what they were calling it at the time like is break making headway throughout you know New York and throughout Ohio and throughout these parts of the east coast of where it started and men are getting sober and we don't know how to describe it. we don't know what's happening. And out of that birthed this fellowship and what we now kind of see in in anonymous 12step recovery meetings um and these principled as you know ways of of you know these 12 simple principles and 12 simple steps derived from you know this spiritual in nature uh program and approach to coming to a relationship with God. Um and that has been the cure and that's all separate from the medical fraternity where it's not you don't pay to go it's for fun and for free. Uh regular meetings, you know, are hosted fun, dude. >> Yeah, regular meetings are hosted all day, every day throughout, you know, all over the world. They're available to to anybody who's out there. And I entered into a a a fellowship of that caliber and it absolutely started to change my life. And so that's a little synopsis of just how that separates, you know, and it was like, again, I don't knock the medical fraternity. I don't knock the uh you know psychological approach like I I myself have gone to therapy and I find it very you know we call it like outside help where I can go to these places and I find a lot of benefit from them and and I I find a lot of influence obviously I'm a uh you know Christian and I I go to church and I put my faith in in Jesus and that was I'll get into the details of how that happened cuz I was not at that point but um >> but all of those things in and of itself alone don't solve alcoholism like we couldn't on their own solve that problem and where this you uh thing had bursted on the scene. Uh took all of those things in one and added and combined these actionable steps and principles to where you could live and explore that and become, you know, sober and and yeah, that's that's kind of what I and it's yeah, it's it's available to anyone. >> That was that was incredible, bro. You just went off right there just telling the whole history of everything. Now, >> I've done a lot of research in the rabbit hole because it's it saved my life. So, >> yeah. Absolutely. [clears throat] you know, for anybody that's listening um that is hearing what Hunter's saying and is relating to it and maybe going, "Wow, maybe I need to go to a meeting, too." Um, we're going to put the links to those resources um down there for you. So, you can find a meeting and you can go because uh it saved Hunter's life and it could save yours, too. >> Yeah. >> Boom. >> Boom. >> Okay. So, segueing, um, you go to this group, you walk from your treatment center in Costa Mesa to this group, >> you get plugged in there. >> Yeah. >> And out of that, I mean, how do you go from again this this first religious experience that you're having opening up to the book of Job? You throw it on the ground. >> That was a weird sound. [laughter] What in the world? Sorry, that was a computer. Um you you uh throw this thing down and um you know then me knowing you now >> you know what what is it 3 4 years after that >> I mean I know you now in the same way that you just went off on the history of these anonymous groups. It's literally like you deep dive into the Bible and know so many incredible things and you're like this wealth of knowledge that is really incredibly uh inspiring and and helpful to me. Um I I think that there's a lot of things that if I have questions on and I haven't done the deep dive on, I can ask you. [laughter] You've done a lot of those deep dives. Um which is amazing. You follow if you have this thought or this question that you have. I think what what I love about you in a really uh awesome way is that you aren't afraid to follow that rabbit hole down as deep as it'll go. >> And come back up with either an answer or a better understanding. >> And um so I mean, but that wasn't how your relationship with God started. >> Um walk me through what that is as I check the computer to make sure that we're still recording. Well, I appreciate you saying that, you know, and I appreciate you, you know, it's I don't know. It feels weird when people like compliment me on that. I I I hear it a lot. It's like I don't know. It's weird. Uh it's not by virtue. It's not I'm not it's not >> this nature or disposition that I have to obsess and go down the rabbit hole and and research and and you know [snorts] envelop myself and saturate myself into history and and you know understanding how things work and questions philosophical theological you know all these things and mechanics of of life like that isn't virtuous like that isn't because I have always been this way and I pride myself as a smart person I'm not special different unique from anybody else like I I think really it was by necessity. It wasn't like I >> you know I was a college and high school like dropout. I didn't even graduate from the high school that I like went to and I I dropped out of every school that I ever started. Like I never finished any career. I got fired or freaking you know quit everything that I ever started. It wasn't because I was some >> you know virtuic intelligent person. It was it was because I had a loaded gun pointed to my head you know. Um I >> am passionate about it because my life was on the line. That's that's the simple reality of it where it's like you know some people get to explore you know uh topics that they're fascinated and and uh >> and you know interested in by intrigue and just wanting to do it as like a hobby like I I I was thrust into a position where after having that spiritual kind of experience and that little moment and you know being faced with that you know [clears throat] moment of even wanting to take my own life in the face of death you know and close calls and all the things that I've experienced like where it it became a non-negot negotiable where it was essentially like I was given a terminal diagnosis and I had finally accepted and understood that and I needed to claw and do whatever it takes to to pivot or die and to go down the rabbit hole and learn everything I can. It was articulated to me like uh by some people who were you know in late stage recovery with like 20 30 years uh having been in in uh sobriety themselves >> who kind of just painted it really simple for me where I was kind of starting to ask questions and uh and they were like Hunter like if you went to the doctor and and got a physical tomorrow for a routine job or thing where you required to go just go get a res regular physical or blood work done and all of a sudden the doctor came back to you and he told you that we found a you know terminal illness or a tumor in your brain and if we don't start treatment right now like you're going to die. You have x amount of time to live and there's a scant chance. There's a very small window that this might work but we need to start right now. >> Yeah. >> Immediately my life wouldn't turn into oh well I need to get make sure I I have like my car in order and I wonder like if that girl still like wants to hang out with me or man I should really go and like >> get a job and make some money right now. Like no. immediately my whole life would change and become as small as a pin dot where like this is the only thing that I'm focused on and I'm going to either do this and learn everything that I possibly can about it so I have a chance at survival or I'm going to die and that is is is kind of the experience that I had with finally realizing like okay like it's time to fight and and uh whatever this is there's a chance that it could work I just I don't know what the hell just happened to me in this experience of like crying out in prayer but I'm going to chase that dragon and uh very similarly to the way that I chased alcohol Paul uh my whole life I I kind of turned that proportion and and threw myself at the hands of of uh the people who had gone before me and I didn't know what I was doing. I was flailing around like a freaking newborn baby giraffe trying to get out from under the legs, you know, of of this little frail structure that I had built on that experience. And so I walked into a a meeting. I sat down. I ended up leading that meeting. Somebody came up to me and handed me the leader format and said, "You're going to start and lead the meeting today." And I was like, "I've never talked." >> The first one >> first one. Yeah. I went, "Yeah, it was crazy." And um >> yeah, even more kind of like god shots and weird, you know, coincidences where somebody, some random girl walked up to me, and she had never seen me before. And she was like, and I was staring at the floor. I walked in. I didn't want to look at anybody. I was freaking like >> just sweating and nervous, but I knew that there was that thought that came to my head that I needed to be here. So, I was like, "All right, whatever. I'm here." And I sat down in the chair and I was just staring at the floor. My legs were like shaking like this. I'm sweating. I I probably just I mean, you could tell everybody looked at me like, "Oh, yeah. This kid's freaking struggle busing." And so this lady walks right up to me and she goes, "What's your name?" And I go, "Uh, my name's Hunter." And she goes, "Oh, cool. You're leading today." Boom. Handed me like the leader format. Turned around and walked away. And I was like, "What?" [laughter] I was like, and I started reading the thing. It's like, "You're going to share for 10 minutes about I was like, I've never publicly talked to anybody in my life." And I just started like freaking having a panic attack, dude. And I'm like sweating and shaking. I'm trying to pass it off to other people. I'm like, "No, bro. It's on you, dude." Like, >> and so I go there. >> I verbal diary. The meeting starts. I verbally diarrhea everything that's happened to me over the last 24 hours and months previous where it's like I am I freaking I'm 24 hours off of a suicide attempt. I don't know what happened. I tried praying and this happened and I just I don't remember what I said. I just freaking >> like panicked and I'm just rambling and talking and just like whatever trying to articulate what the hell just happened to me and why I'm here >> and I was vulnerable and I was scared and I was, you know, afraid, lonely, whatever. And and uh I remember I could like hear a pin drop in the room and everyone's just like listening and I'm so nervous. I'm like, "Oh my god, they're going to think I'm so like I don't know. I was just terrified." And I was so scared of people. And uh and I finished and I was just kind of like, "Okay, I I don't know what else to say, whatever." And the room just erupted like everybody was like laughing and clapping and like like cheering me on. It was like I just like won a marathon or something. And I was like, >> "What the hell?" It was like confused. It was a weird feeling like I just told you like the worst possible thing of like the situation that I'm in and everybody in the room like erupted and was just so stoked and happy and welcoming and just it was a foreign feeling and I was like why are these people like excited and they knew what I didn't know that I was like beginning this mark of what could eventually you know save my life and and I was always baffled and confused by going to these >> you [clears throat] know meetings you see like the ones on TV where it's like depressing and people sitting around like in a circle like oh I'm not drinking today. Today's day 21, you know, oh yeah, my, you know, I'm just trying to make it one more day. And it was just very Eeyorees [laughter] of like just how oh [snorts] bother. And that's like kind of my conception in view. But when I would go to these meetings, people are laughing and they're joking and they're like talking about trips they just went on and making plans to go to concerts together and they're all like family, wife, kids, like whatever, driving up and like, you know, seemingly just normal people and they're just they got this like energy about them and this happiness. It's like weird. And and um I didn't know what that was. And I remember Sharon. And then I remember there was a man in the room. Uh I had seen him before, I think at meetings. He was kind of a familiar face, very stoic, very kind of like quiet, reserved guy. And I remember he shared and he started, you know, talking about his life. And he started talking about his uh life before he got sober. And he was just telling the most horrific, horrendous like details of things that he had done >> in his life like getting loaded in front of his kids and like you know um driving in the car with his baby in the back while he's like you know >> uh high and and just you know cheating on his wife like just you know embezzling money like all these just horrific crazy stories things that I would never tell anybody and I'm over here like listening to this guy >> and I'm like oh my god And that is not the guy who I see sharing, but he's talking in a way. It wasn't even the details of the story that were like captivating. It was the way that he was sharing it. It was almost like he was sharing it >> with gratitude. And it was almost like he was sharing it in a way that was like no shame, >> no guilt, >> no self-pity in his voice. He was talking about it as though it was like uh a necessary process and that he's grateful that it happened cuz it put him in the position where he is today. That was baffling cuz I couldn't even look anybody in the eye, [clears throat] let alone myself in the mirror. [snorts] >> And I would just remember looking at that guy and being like, "Dude, whatever that guy has, >> I don't have that." >> Yeah. >> And I I don't know what that's all about. And I remember he actually came up to me after the meeting and talked to me and he was like, "Hey, bro." Like, and long story short, he took me out to coffee and and he started he became like my mentor like figure in that just another, >> you know, sober alcoholic talking to another. And uh it was very different, a very different experience. I had been very resistant and hesitant to be vulnerable and honest with people in my life. I would always give them the runaround. I was like a chameleon. I think I talked about last time. And >> you know when you're sitting across from like a doctor or even your mom or your dad or you're sitting across from like >> you know your parole officer or whatever, there's this feeling of like you don't really understand what I'm going through. Like it it's like I know you think you do. And it's like even it could be like a drug and alcohol specialist like psychotherapist whatever prominent well have a PhD but there's this layer of where what they're telling me and how they're talking to me about addiction it's almost like they're reading out of a textbook. There's this sterile kind of like lack of uh experience. It's like nah but you don't really know what it's like. You know the symptoms of what it looks like in other people but you don't really know what it's like. And >> but sitting across from this guy there was no there was no beating around the bush with those kind of things. knew more about me than I knew about me. Let's just say that. And it's like I I believed everything that he said. There was some rapport. Like he didn't have any access to grind. There was no lecture to be endured. It was almost like he didn't even care. Like he was just very in a matterof fact way of like, "Hey bro, there's a way out of this." Essentially, he just presented to me the cure for cancer and was just like, "Hey bro, there's this thing that will work 100% of the time if you put 100% of your effort into it. Take it or leave it." essentially just like sold me on this calm proposition of like, hey, if you start to do this, I'll teach you. And he Mr. Miyagied me in [laughter] a weird way where it was just kind of like, hey, like this is my life. This is what happened to me. This is what I'm like today. And you can either buy it or you can leave it. It was like a sales proposition. And he honestly wasn't motivated. There was this demeanor about him where it was like he cared, you know, obviously enough to take the time out of his day to sit down with me and talk with me and, you know, pour his heart out, but also there was this disposition to him where it's like I knew he knew what he was talking about and the way that he described his drinking was like >> graphically uh identical to the way that I drank and I knew that he knew and I was like, whoa. It was like sitting across from somebody like >> I don't know. You hear that a lot with like veterans, both my parents are like retired army. It's like people who go to war together, they experience a traumatic thing together. There's this kind of like unspoken. My parents have this like when my mom went to Iraq and like my dad would be at home with me and he'd be working. There's this kind of unspoken bond and trust and just commonality that you don't even need to articulate and describe. It's just like one look and knowing like what you've been through together where it's just kind of like I got your back and it's like I know you and I know you inside and out and I'm like in the same boat and it's just >> but at at the same time with this guy too, you could almost tell in in how he was talking that it was like >> uh when you're saying he doesn't care. It's more like I'm not going to force you to do this. >> Right. This is the cure. >> Exactly. >> Take it or leave it like you said. Right. And I think that that is >> and that struck me. Yeah. >> Yeah. Because so many times when there are people who are struggling or when there's people even, you know, us as Christians, when there's people that don't know God and they're flounder floundering around, >> we can so often try to be like, "No, no, no. Please, like, come on. Please let me do it for you." >> Yeah. >> You hit the nail where like he's not sitting there with a savior mentality that's like, "I'm going to do this for you." He's like, >> "This is the cure. >> This will work if you put [clears throat] in the effort." >> Yeah. But we're not going to start until you're ready to go in. >> Yeah. And that was kind of his pitch. And that was like I think the biggest thing for me is like I told him my whole Saab story. I told him like a brief synopsis of my life and I was kind of he calls it at the time. He jokes about it now, but he calls it victim. Like I was fluent in Vietnamese [laughter] where I was just he was sitting there letting me ramble and I'm like thinking that I'm going to sell him. He's going to feel bad for me. He's like, "Oh, you poor thing." Like, "Wow, you had such a hard life." And he's just going, "Uh-huh. Uh-huh." And he's listening and I'm just articulate. I'm just trying to describe how different and unique and, you know, >> yeah, >> outlier my case is to him and he's like, it's like I was just talking to a guy who's heard it a thousand times. It's like I'm trying to explain to a car mechanic something that I have no idea about and he's like just sitting there like, "Okay, okay, yeah, it's it's Yeah, okay." And at the end, >> spark plug. >> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] And I'm like, "Oh." And I I like painting it out over my life and and he just sits there and he goes, "No, I don't think it's any of that stuff." And he because I'm sitting there self-dagnosing myself like I probably have like you know bipolar or borderline personality disorder. I'm like an anxious depressive attached like whatever all these like treatment buzzwords that were getting thrown around in my head that I was taking identity with. And he just started laughing. He's like bro I think you're just a garden variety drunk homie. Like I think you're just an alcoholic. That's it. He's like all those symptoms and all those things they look kind of like these other you know mental health disorders or whatever. He's like bro you're just you're just a drunk dog. He's like that's it. You got what I got. He's like that's it. It's that simple. And the way that he just like a matter of fact told me that, it was like, "No way." And he was like, "Yeah, I've been there. I've done all that. I've seen all that. I've seen." He's like, "Bro, I've met a thousand versions of you." Like, >> he's like, "You think you're the first guy to like flounder in here and like not know down from up and just like think that he's terminally different and unique from everybody else and that you're so special and that you're different?" It's like, yeah, you might have had a different experience or walk or background, but we're suffering from the same thing. You can't stop drinking. >> What are you going to do about it? And he's like, "It's all boils down to this one thing >> and and all the this is what separates too like in the treatment sphere and even in church and people are like well this is the solution and like we need to pray for you and we need to do all this for you." And it's like those aren't bad things. I'm not saying and knocking that. But they weren't cutting to the heart of the issue of like no you're an alcoholic. It's this is your fault. Like you're not a victim. Like nobody did this to you. Nobody held like Hunter did anybody hold a gun to your head and make you drink a fifth of whiskey every single day and make all these rash decisions on how you were like living your life? And I was like, "Well, no." And he's like, "Okay, you did that. Yeah, it's unfortunate. Yeah, there was things that happened to you." And he's like, "Look, I'm not denying or minimizing the fact that like, you know, things happened to you as a kid and you were exposed to certain things, whatever." And he's like, "That's I'm not minimizing that. We're going to deal with that. And there's a way that you can get help and move past this, but like look, man, you're not responsible for what happened to you in those times, but you're damn sure responsible for how you carry that around today and how you've been living your life." Yeah. >> And he's like, "You're the only one who got yourself here. Nobody's going to come save you, dude." And I was just like, >> whoa. And um and it was real and it was true and I respected his candidness. I was almost a little offended at first. I was like usually my mom listens to my soba stories and it was just him. He was just like, "Bro, like you're preaching to the choir like anything else." And I was just kind of like I respected his just blunt candid, >> you know, response of just like he wasn't phased by it. I think that was the biggest draw was that like none of it was shocking. I thought he was going to be like, "Wow, I can't believe like he'd heard it all and he had already experienced all that stuff and he was just like, "Yeah, dude. >> I get it. Okay." like what are we going to do about it? And that was like my beginning. And so I started doing, you know, things with him. And uh and again, it wasn't like he didn't make me, he didn't force me, he didn't care. He was just like, "Look, if you want what I have, you're going to do what I do." >> Simple as that. >> Come on. [clears throat] That's a banger line right there. >> Yeah. He's like, "If you want what we have and you're willing to do anything for it, then you're going to do what we do." >> It's monkey see monkey do around here, dude. He's like, "You're just another bozo on the bus. Like get on, dude." And I was like, >> "Okay." Okay. And it it took the air out of all the pressure and the anxiety of like trying to discover what was wrong with me. I was so broken and flawed. And it was just it made it very simple of like, no, you have this thing and you need this solution. It's like, okay, cool. Like, yeah, you have sweaty armpits. Here's a stick of deodorant. That simple. Like, we have a solution for that. >> You're not uncommon. And I was like, >> it was like almost a relief where I was like, okay. like it was like all right this isn't some and I still didn't have any answers or whatever but like you know this complicated Rubik's cube that I had like made my life out to be seemed very simple and uh and I believed him there was that trust where it's like he had gone through it so like I believed him >> and I I I I could there was this sense of like unspoken trust where I was like all right I don't know it's like yeah >> and so you you get connected with this Mr. Miyagi and he [laughter] he takes you through um this program. >> Yeah. >> And I mean within that uh with within the experiences and and um you know taking the actions that that you took to to get sober and to do these different things. I mean, is that where you kind of found a name for God and kind of found a a relationship with him through that or was it like once that was done? >> Yeah, it's a really good question. I think that's a a question that I think a lot of people miss even in their own walk and and journey and and uh I think it's the latter where it was uh it was this I I just had to get in line and and I just had to like start getting into action. And that was the biggest thing is like you know I I had had that experience but that experience would mean nothing unless I immediately uh followed it by rigorous action to build up a fortress in a wall and start to like live by principles in which I wouldn't have to go back to that again cuz I'd been there a million times before. There's a um [clears throat] a pastor told me this a long time ago and it's like this sentence is just like always stuck in my head um when when he he was talking specifically about people sharing their testimonies and you know talking about a specific moment right and he said this quick phrase he said it's not about a m it's not about a moment it's about a momentum. Yeah, >> it's huge. >> And this whole concept of being like, well, you know, 10 years ago, >> this thing happened and so therefore I'm in right standing with God or this thing happened so therefore >> whatever that might be >> justifying this moment that happened years ago >> whilst the the momentum of your life doesn't follow that moment at all. And if you're, you know, if you say, "Oh, I turned onto this path a long time ago, >> but then right as you started walking there, you turned back around and started walking the other way." You're not still on that path. Yeah. >> Right. And so you take these steps, you get into this this momentum, keep going. >> Yeah. I don't know. It's it's very nuanced and there's a lot of depth to that concept of like you see it a lot in even like church communities. Somebody gets prayed over or they get, you know, baptized or they they make the altar call. They make it like, well, we had 300 people say yes to Jesus today. And it's like, maybe there's no fault. Like, by their fruits, you shall know them. And there's never this one period of time. Like, I don't think humans are like that. Nothing in life really works that way. I don't think like >> um it's a developmental like process in which shapes and forges and crafts like you and who you are as a person. Like, you know, I didn't get this way overnight and I wasn't going to just get better overnight. Like there could be successions of very impactful moments and periods that kind of like >> my sponsor, you know, was like, "Hey, that was your moment where your head popped out of your butt and now you can freaking, you know, breathe and look around for a little while, but now it's time to get to work where it's like, okay, cool. We've made the assessment. We've made the diagnosis. We now know what the problem is." But unless we start to fix the problem, like you are doomed to go back there. I I think it's Paul that says we are we are saved and being saved >> and there's going to be >> continuous moments >> where you know you jump back in the water and then you need somebody to throw your life raft again. >> Yeah, 100%. And so that was kind of like what started I I use the Mr. Miyagi analogy cuz it's just I think a perfect little synopsis of like I was doing seemingly unimportant actions and little bits of things that built a momentum that would draw me into this point >> uh where there's no finish line really. That was the f the first thing that I got told was like three simple things like Hunter there's no cap and gown in this. you're never going to walk down, you know, the graduation aisle. Like, we don't get, you know, degrees in this. And, uh, you know, this is a lifelong process, but it's one simple day at a time. You don't need to think about all that right now. Um, I got told another thing. I got told to buy a black suit cuz I was going to go to a lot of weddings and go to a lot of funerals um, in this scope of of the reality of what I was in. And, uh, there was going to be a lot of beautiful things that I was going to see. There was going to be a lot of heartache and a lot of tragedy. He didn't try to like paint it as like, you know, puppies and rainbows all the time. He's literally was like, "Dude, this is going to be the hardest thing you've ever done." And uh but we don't have to do it all at once. And it was just little things. And uh >> and another thing that I got told early on was my uh another mentor, another person, you know, uh in recovery told me, he said, "Hunter, it's not the bear that ruins the picnic, it's the ants. It's the little tiny things that you're not paying attention to that are going to creep in and like break apart your fortress and be the Trojan horse that comes in while you're not even thinking about it while you're sleeping." and uh because I'm waiting for this big thing like a a bottle is going to fall out of the sky and I'm gonna be like held with this decision or somebody's gonna like force a drink down my throat. And he's like, "No, it's going to be your lack of like, you know, uh your lack of willingness. It's going to be irritability. It's going to be these little thoughts that creep in your head that go unchecked. It's going to be a craving that you never told anybody about. It's going to be a secret that maybe you keep. It's going to be a resentment that you hold." And I started to learn these things and I just started going uh to these, you know, meetings and uh I had that experience, but I wasn't sold on the God idea. that was just enough for me to be like maybe there's something to this. >> And so I just started about on this rigorous course of action. And it was just very simple stuff. It was like >> learning teaching me little things on like how to show up on time, how to not litter, like how to take my grocery cart and put it to the front of the store, how to have integrity, how to be honest when things aren't going good and just be candid about it, how to share truthfully and be authentic and stop trying to fool >> isolate out of fear. >> Yeah. And not manipulate people by trying to like paint a picture of what you want them to see. of what's actually there and being transparent about it no matter like you can't save your face and your ass at the same time. [laughter] I was like okay and uh he was like who cares what anybody thinks it's not going to be pretty but like don't try to put a wig on a pig just do it's going to take what it takes and you know >> and uh there was all these little little oneliners like that little phrases that I would start to hear and pick up. I started immersing myself into literature. He gave me a lot of helpful books. Um, >> what are some of those books that you read? >> Um, >> if you can remember them. >> Yeah, I I mean there's there's just a ton. I don't know. There was some uh influential ones like The Golden Key was a good one too by EMTT Fox. The Sermon on the Mount kind of breakdown. Those were just ones that were kind of starting to come. There was a lot of 12step literature that is available too. Um, where they have some like just guiding principles that gives like an in-depth breakdown on it. Um, so I was just exposed to a lot of these things. A lot of them were like speakers too, like a lot of people in recovery um that were very prominent and skilled at articulating it in a way. So I would listen to these like on YouTube you can listen to like recovery tapes of like people who are just sharing their story much like we're doing right now. And I would just listen to that. I was just absorbing myself with as much information as possible while I was trying to build and just take actions. And I was showing up. I got like a commitment where I was like setting up chairs, breaking them down at the end of the meeting and I would like pour I was the coffee guy. So I would sit there and make coffee. I'd have to go and get coffee and bring it to the meeting. And it was simple things like that. I was a greeter. They would put me at the front of the meeting when everybody was coming in. I'd have to shake people's hands. Hi, I'm Hunter. Welcome. Hi, I'm Hunter. Welcome. Cuz I was antisocial and didn't want and all these things seemed like when I say seemingly unimportant. I was literally there was moments where I was like, dude, what the f is me setting up these chairs and breaking them down have to do with me getting sober? Like when is this going to like serve me? And I didn't know that he was slowly teaching me how to like be responsible and show me how to have how to show up on time to things. when you say you're going to be somewhere, you're going to be there. Like, you're going to set this up and have a care because if you don't set up the chairs, nobody's going to have a place to sit. So, it's not about you. It was trying to get me outside of myself in an act of service towards other people to where I wasn't thinking about my problems, my crap, and my, you know, um me, just me all the time. I think just there's no difference psychologically between like obsessing about yourself and like depression and misery. Like if you're just constantly me me I I my problems, my this, my that. That's why you look at like people who are like, you know, narcissists or like really wealthy people. It's like it's never enough, you know, and there's no knock on like becoming successful in these things too. But if it's all about you all the time, you're never going to scratch that itch and you'll never be enough and things will never >> you'll never find satisfaction. But when I start to like make myself other centered, there was things too where he was like, "Look, dude, >> you got 10 days sober. There's a guy behind you with nine who doesn't know how you made it to 10. Go talk to that guy and start talking to people. Like you're qualified to go and just share things." and I was just starting to learn. And [snorts] uh yeah, he took me down this road of going over my life story and what he really taught me to do was like take responsibility for my life. And uh >> so to to recover, what were those three things that your your sponsor told you at the beginning? He said, uh buy a suit, >> right? >> Buy a black suit cuz you're going to go to a lot of weddings and a lot of funerals. That was gnarly. Um, I forget what was the other one that >> he said. Oh man, you said you said one of them uh before that. Oh man. >> See, it's all in there in my brain. When I try to recall it, it's like >> whatever. If it comes back up, we'll we'll talk about it. >> Um, there was another one where he said, you know, it's not the bear that ruins the picnic, it's the ants, it's the little things um that you're going to have to like >> keep in check and keep accountable for. Um, and you can't save your face and your ass at the same time. That was another one. Maybe there was another one, too. There's all I have like a million [gasps] >> phrases and like things and stuff. People think I'm like clever all the time. Like I'll go to like fellowships or groups or like at our men's accountability meeting that we go to or whatever. People are like, "Where did you come up with that? I've never heard that." I'm like, "Dude, it's all plagiarized. I've just heard this crap." Like we just we have these witty things and it's cliche and it's corny and it's funny, but it's cuz it sticks and it's like reminders. There's these deeper truths behind him that we have to like embrace if we're going to live, you And again, it's not by virtue that I like, you know, have experience with all this stuff, but it's it's uh because I have a loaded gun pointed to my head. If I don't do these things, I'm going to drink again, and if I drink, I'm going to die. Like, that was just the simple reality. And so, I just started doing things. And >> yeah, I started going down the rabbit hole of of literature. I started experimenting with with prayer. Uh to answer your question about like where my conception of God started. It was just nothing was forced upon me, but I I had a kind of a resentment uh against organized religion and against maybe some hypocrisy that I saw growing up and maybe things against my dad and and just like you know the idea of God in general in the face of like the impending all the things that you know we now see if you're immersed in Christian culture of like the atheistic arguments of like well the morality if there is a God why do we go to war? It's like yeah cuz we started the war it's not our fault. But I didn't see that. I was very blinded by a lot of hurt and a lot of misconceptions and a lot of bad uh representations I think too. Um >> and so throughout your program you just start digging up >> well it was some of these things. >> It was the shattering of that victim mentality I think like it was the beginning of where my my mentors were telling me that like >> dude you put yourself here. There's nobody to blame but you. And like that was this beginning of me being able to look over every moment every horrific thing in my life that I had some part to play in. Even if it was like something that happened to me as an innocent child, the way that I coped and carried it around and then used it to weaponize or manipulate people to feel pity or to get what I wanted, like that was my part in how I started to have to look back over my life and take responsibility >> and look at like, dude, like you've been dealing with this all wrong and you've been >> using drugs and alcohol as a way to escape and run from that. Then when you're sober or when you have an, you know, moment of where you're not drinking, you know, it's not sober. You're just abstinent where you're just dry and uh you can't face your life in the face of the things that you've done. You're convicted in and in in shame and guilt and remorse. And so you go back to drinking to deal with it. And it just becomes this vicious cycle over and over again. And I have no scope of morality. I have I'm selfish. I'm self-centered. I'm inherently evil and broken, right? Like >> and uh so I started to see correlations and parallels. And so as I navigated through that process and I I went through like a period of kind of like confession where I I went through every detail of my life and I shared it with this guy and and we started to look at every moment in my life and and went through in with a fine tooth comb and broke down like where I was responsible and it changed the narrative. It didn't change anything externally but it changed my perspective and it's like the more I went through that process the better my childhood got. the more that life wasn't that unfair. the more that wow I was actually to blame in that situation actually I started that you know conflict with that person it really wasn't them or or even in the face of things that were just objectively wrong that happened to me like I started to see myself and other people who had maybe wronged me or or persecuted me or hurt me where I was like man like they're just another flawed sick broken human being and and I started learning biblical truths without even without even knowing it where it was like if I wanted forgiveness I would have to learn how to forgive other people right and if I wanted to change my life like I would have to see that maybe Maybe other people are sick spiritually. Maybe they don't know what they're doing. Maybe it's not personal. Maybe they don't even know. Maybe if I had lived the life that they had lived and walked in their shoes that I would actually be capable of doing the same thing, if not worse. And it started to level the playing field and take the air out of this vindictive victim narrative I painted over my whole life. And I started to experience relief and freedom and being like, "Wow, like, okay, like it's not as bad as I painted it out to be. I'm not as flawed and broken and, you know, hopeless as I thought." M >> and I had to just clear away the wreckage and and it was just all of this stuff. I was like a hoarder in in a house, my spiritual house, right? Like I was stuff stacked up to the roof that I'd never dealt with. And so, you know, I would just box by box and item by item start to take it out, take stock, take inventory, look at it, see where I was to blame, take responsibility and pocket that and learn this. And I started to just see a pattern of behavior. Yeah. And uh I started to look at just the simplistic like pattern of the fact that I was going through this list of like resentments I had to people. Well, this person did this and this person did this. The more that I wrote it on paper and just went down the list, >> the more I saw the same thing happening over and over again with different people. I thought that in my head it was different, but I was responding to it the same way. It was the same resentment, the same thing. And it was just like I just saw this repetitive thing. I'm like, "Oh no." >> And my sponsor was like, "What's the common denominator to all these situations?" And I was like, he was like, "You, idiot." And he was like, "This [laughter] is you." Like, "You're the one creating this." >> And um >> I just couldn't see it. I was blinded by that. And uh and yeah, going through that process and exploring more with prayer. I got encouraged to go and and read, you know, uh inspirational spiritual maybe books and like, you know, church wasn't a taboo thing in this community and stuff. It was encouraged to just go explore it. They don't have like an opinion on it. They weren't saying you need to believe in this and have this, but they were like, "Hey, why don't you just go back and look at that?" And the more that I could clear away the wreckage and I got over the resentments that I had and saw that like actually it was my perceptions that were warped. And I uh there's this analogy um in some of our literature where it talks about like >> we had we had uh taken the whole forest and marked it with wholesale condemnation because we saw a few ugly trees like and there was another analogy I heard to where it was like uh my mentor kind of explained this to me where he was like dude if somebody sat down at you you like music or you're musically inclined so this you'll you'll get this um >> if somebody sat down at a piano and said hey I'm going to play you know, Mozart's fifth symphony or whatever, Beethoven's fifth, you know, symphony, whatever. A song that is, you know, known and composed in like a beautiful piece of art and he's like, "This is what I'm about to play." And he sits down and he just bangs on the keys and he's out of tune and it's completely just sounds like dog crap and he's just and just goes all over it or whatever. And he says, "Well, that was how did you like that?" Would you blame the composer or would you blame maybe the guy playing the song who misplayed it? Like >> and and and it was an illumination to what I had done to God my whole life where it was like maybe I had experienced some bad representations or some human flawed um demonstrations of what you know being godly or what prayer or who God was. Uh maybe I had just had some encounters with people who were misplaying, you know, the note and yet I'm wholesale condemning the entire organization, institution and conception as a whole because I'm throwing the baby out with the bath water off of a resentment and a bad experience. Right. >> Yeah. Well, I I think it's that whole thing where again for so many people their [clears throat] number one reason why they don't want to give God a chance or why they don't want to have anything to do with Christianity in general is because there's so much hypocrisy. Sure. Right. We hear that all the time that that uh and it's true there's so much hypocrisy within the church, >> but if we let flawed human beings represent a perfect and holy God to us and be him on earth, >> um it's always going to let us down. >> Yeah. >> 10 out of 10 times. >> And these are the questions that now that I started to kind of >> face the reality of of me and take an ownership, I I start it started to soften that grip and chokeold that I had on my vindiction [clears throat] to you know what God didn't do for me and these religious people and you guys are all hypocrites and judgmental and like you know well and just all this stuff and I started to slowly loosen the grip and I kind of started to peer through the forest and be like man maybe I don't really know and I started asking myself honest questions again like that one where I was like I've never really given that a shot like I've actually never investigated that I've never even read the Bible I've never even read so that prompted me where I kind of got through some portions I started making amends that was another thing I started going back like had some impactful moments where I could go back to like my father who I had such a gnarly terrible relationship with where we were like physically going at it and just screaming at each other and just a lot of this pent [snorts] up resentment where I was able to go back to him and and and apologize and not just apologize but really make amends and mend the relationship where I had gone wrong and not bring up his you know flaws and faults and try to weaponize it or win an argument. I was just like, man, you know, I was a misre misrepresentation of what a son is supposed to be and uh you know, you were doing the best you could with what you had and and and I I totally took advantage of you through that. And I'm and I I I can't tell you how sorry I am and I want to make that right. And uh >> and going [snorts] into those types of broken and flawed relationships with no expectation of what I was going to receive on the other side, you know, whether my dad sat there and said, "Well, yeah, you were a piece of crap. F you. I hope you freaking whatever." Like I was prepared for that or I was prepared for whatever outcome. like I was there to clean up my side of the street and if that person's side of the street was dirty, mine had to be twice as clean. And I had to go make uh an effort of reciprocity and reconciliation no matter the outcome. And uh to own up for my wrongs and my flaws and my mistakes and look that person in the eye and and give them a piece of their heart back because I stomped on it. And uh whether it was insignificant to them, there were some amends that I would like call people and be like, "Hey man, you remember that time when I bullied you in fifth grade?" He's like, "Dude, who is this? Like what are you talking about right now?" He's like, "I don't care, dude. like, "Don't call me anymore." Bang. And I'm like, and that was like a humbling experience. I was like, "Oh, I'm not as impactful on people as I thought I was." Um, >> all this ego shattering like humiliating humble pie that I was being like for served just like started to like let me walk out of that crap again. And I started to see life like it was slowly starting to go from like black and white to color. And I was starting to see things for how they are were. And I was starting to have joy again and laughing and building friendships and community all while I'm still like immersing myself in this stuff. And I'm making mistakes, don't get me wrong. It wasn't like I was levitating above people. I was still losing my temper and like crying at night or walking by a liquor store when I was going to my get well job and like looking in and peering in the aisle and being like, "Oh, they do have my brand in there. Oh, it could be a good and I'd have to like check it. I'd have to pray. I'd have to ask God, hey, you know, give me the strength to do this." I'd call my freaking mentor. I'd call some other people in recovery and I'd have to get my butt to a freaking chair again. And I would have to do this on repeat. And it was just like >> over and over again, just like process of just repetition. and I was just drowning myself in it. It was like my full-time job. There was nothing else. And and and there was times where I would kind of lose faith and lose hope or I'd lose my temper on somebody or I would, you know, that those resentments that I thought I dealt with would kind of crop back up again and I'd have to like trim and really get back down to the root and see it for what it was. And all the while I'm like praying and experimenting with asking God. My whole the whole point of it was not to >> treat God like a vending machine. And it was no longer like what can God do for me, but what can I do to discover what his will for my life is and align myself with that. >> Wow. I was no longer like a selfish victim. And now I was like going to have a new employer. I was going to have a relationship with, you know, my creator in a way where I needed to be and play the role that I was designed to play. And I don't know what that looks like. And that's none of my business. That was another thing my my mentor told me. He was like, "Hunter, your main focus, your main job is to make Hunter's life none of his business." Like, we're not in the outcomes. We're not in the outcome business. We're in the action business. You're going to take these actions and whatever the outcome is, it's none of your business. how that happens and plays out. You're going to accept it as it comes and we're going to just start taking it and we're going to go and we're going to start to clean up these things of what you can control and categorize all this crap of what you think you can and can't control and just really focus on what you can do right here, right now. And it kept me present and it kept my feet planted in reality while my head was starting to peak into >> heaven and starting to actually experiment with these things. And so um yeah, I just started a journey and it took and this you know is a synopsis over what was starting to take place for like you know my first year and uh and and yeah it was it was okay and uh I had a [snorts] conception and I started to get things back. I started to rebuild those relationships. I started to get you know reconciliation with family. I started to rebuild some finances and I started to get like a little getwell job and I started to like make a lot of friends and I got like a girlfriend and like things were starting to feel okay. I started to like go to the gym and like I was finding hobbies again. Little beautiful things that started to like take place. I was like a little kid again. I was just like literally being reborn. Like I was living life >> again in a way that I'd never experienced it. I had had a fresh windshield and I could finally like see things for what they were and it was like >> beautiful man. And uh yeah, I was just like >> like getting to explore things that it's like I almost got like my childhood back and I got to like experience things again and uh and just be a student and be a seeker and not have like this pressure to have it all figured out and have an arriving conclusion and I would just start to navigate it and when I made a mistake I'd check it in. I'd be accountable. I'd take responsibility, look at where I was at fault and try to do better next time and just check it in and be accountable to a group and people. And uh it worked well for a while. And um yeah, that was kind of like my first synopsis. And um that was my first year. And I remember um my first year into being sober. It was like I remember, you know, doing all these things too, like uh like setting up chairs and being the coffee guy. Like I thought it was bull crap. And I was like going to these like, you know, panels where I was going to like other detoxes and institutions and I was like sharing the message and just sharing my story. And I thought it was dumb. I'd rather go hang out with girls at the beach or go do my own thing or whatever. And um all the while I'm learning to do these things, I'm just doing it cuz my mentor was telling me to do it and I didn't really see the point. I was kind of like bummed, but I was just I would slowly get relief and I remember one time I don't remember again like you said there was never like this >> razor's edge, you know, moment. But I remember there was this one meeting where I started to kind of get like I would like I would start to like like my little responsibilities. I started to get like a little bit I had some money from my little getwell job where I was like I want to get like nicer coffee grounds and I want to like maybe I'll put some sea salt in the coffee so people like it and oh maybe I'll get oh I want the chairs actually if I point them this way then people can actually see the speaker and like it's not as like okay this one's behind the pole. I started to have some pride in in these little things and I remember one day and I just done this over and over again at this you know >> at this clip of what I was doing. I don't remember if it was like 60 days 90 days into that I was sober and going through the process. Um, and I remember my mentor was like sitting there and he would do this all with me. He wasn't just like barking orders at me. He was just >> he wasn't like, >> this is the cool part is he didn't just tell me, "This is what you need to do. You need to do this. You need to do this." He was just like, "Come do life with me. >> Do what I do." He was like, and he was just letting me in on what he was already doing behind closed doors. And he wasn't looking for applause. He wasn't looking for a pat on the back, but like this dude was on the phone with people all the time, constantly being of service. You never know. He was just doing this. He had this secret life of like spiritual jiujitsu and freaking service and help and just you know what he was doing and and uh he was just telling me to tag along. Come monkey see monkey do what I do. And I remember one day uh I was setting up chairs and like getting everything adjusted. And I remember like I was talking to somebody and I kind of like started to smile again. And uh there was people who were like, "Dude, I haven't ever seen you smile." Like, "Bro, that's freaking sick." And it was like, "Huh?" Other people started to notice the change before I really like felt it. Um and I hadn't gotten loaded. I hadn't drank and I hadn't thought of freaking, you know, killing myself again. So, that was like, okay. But I hadn't really realized it. I was just so immersed in this. And I remember he was like, "Hey, Hunter." He was like up at the coffee bar and he was like, "Yo." And I was like, "What's up?" And he was like, >> "Come here." And he and I walked up to him and I was like, "What's up? I'm freaking setting up chairs." And he was just like, "When's the last time you thought about taking a drink?" >> And I was like, >> and I was like floor cuz I cuz I had like argued with him and be like, "Dude, are we when am I going to Why do you keep making me do all these chores and all this crap?" And so he came up and he asked me that and I was just like I was floored. I was like I don't remember. I was like I don't know when's the last time I thought about a drink. And he was like >> he said he said right now. [laughter] >> Yeah. Right. Like actually right now I've been drunk the whole time. Um and uh and I was just like baffled. And I was like dude I don't remember. And he was like >> something's working. You better keep doing it. And I was like whoa. And it kind of like I was like dude whatever I'm doing I was like all right I can do. And it just it start it gave me that faith to like all right I don't know what's how's this working or whatever but like whatever I'm doing >> this is crazy this is like the longest time I've spent sober since I was like >> 10 like this is [clears throat] nuts and so yeah that that began that journey and so >> and so you you go through that I mean you know where we know each other from is we go to the same house church and it's like >> show up there and you're already like >> ingrained in this community. >> How did how did that happen? I mean, how did you how did you end up going to church? >> Okay. Um, so that was kind of a entry point into like my first year and it was a lot of fun and making friends and a lot of good things started to happen. But, um, slowly but surely like I remember I brought my parents out. When I got a year, I was like, I had arrived. Like I thought I was like >> past this. I thought in my head I was building up like my first year. Once I hit a year, I'm going to be like freaking a superstar. I'm not going to be like, you know, I have a year now. Cuz I would always look at people like, damn, they have like a year or like multiple years. I'm like, dude, once I can just enter into that club, then I can like be part of the crew or whatever, not knowing that I'm already a part of it and it's just a daily thing. And like, and I knew things intellectually. And I started to like, mind you, I'm studying the history. I'm studying the literature. I'm sharing now. I'm all of a sudden getting confidence in my speaking abilities. And like, I'm starting to like, you know, philosophize and rationalize all this stuff. I'm memorizing it. I people are like, "Wow, your shares are really good. You know how to like cuz I'm like immersing myself in it." And then it slowly started to enter into a point where I was like relying more on myself >> and I was relying more on like intellectual pride. And now all of a sudden it was what I knew about recovery. And now all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, that guy's share sucks. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Oh man, that newcome he's like he's freaking doesn't know." And I started slowly but surely >> I was suffering again from alcoholism without having a drink >> in my body. I was slowly letting my ego creep back in. Slowly I started to rest satisfaction. It's the judgment >> on my work outside on me. It was a worksbased sobriety and faith really and my conception of a higher power. Like I think it's a necessary factor in these uh groups to like allow an open door for anybody to come in and get sober and go down that path. But there are some key distinctions in in our literature and in the program where it does say that like you know you need to make a personal relationship and rely upon God and carry his will in your life every single day. There's a lot of like biblical literature type language in our uh beliefs, you know, and and it's not inherently like Christian as a corporation or not corporation, but as an organization or as an institution, but there's a lot of that influence in there and it makes a like distinction that like literally like God either is or he isn't. Like God is either everything or else he's nothing. Like what's your choice going to be? Like he is either the focal point of your life. Like he's the director, you're his agent. like you are pawn scum like compared to God, you know, not in a self-worth thing, but it's like its whole emphasis is to get you in right standing with a with a God that you can do business with and submit yourself to. And I took the whole narrative of what I think recovery has kind of started to boil down to today and this is just my opinion and experience and observations is where people have taken that kind of higher power conception and the freedom you have to go investigate these things where essentially it gives you the ability to create your own god >> in a way where then if you play that out logically for me now that I look back >> I started to become God because then [clears throat] God could be whatever conception I needed and that was convenient for me that day and what was comfortable for me and being like well God is this to me. God is just love and he is forgiving and he will always forgive me and do whatever I want and like it was just it became this conception >> of God that was in it for me and he was there to serve me and I became the center of what like God's purpose was if that makes sense. And I didn't know that this was happening. It was all subconscious and that's how I was treating my prayer life. It was like, "God, do this for me. God, can you give me this?" Like, "God." And it was a very arrogant, egotistical >> kind of way. And I didn't know that that's what I was doing. This was just kind of the climate that I was given and that was working for me. And other people said, "Yeah, it's fine. Sounds good to me." And I was like, "Okay." And I just started to kind of run with it. And uh and that wasn't really holding water. And I didn't know that. And then slowly these things would creep back in. Now all of a sudden I'm sitting on the throne of judgment. I'm sitting on like my opinions and like what I think and I'm starting to get restless again. I'm starting to get irritable. I'm starting to catch resentments and to people and I'm starting to think I know it all. I'm starting to kind of like pride myself on what I think I know. Well, you know, and and yeah, I started like immersing myself in like relationships and what girls I was dating at the time. I started like resorting to, you know, sexual encounters and things like that. And I slowly started to kind of get away from that desperate reality that like I'm suffering from a fatal illness. I need help and I need to be treated and I need a creator that is going to [clears throat] heal me every day. And I slowly started to think, "Oh, I got this. I learned. Oh, cool. I'm cured. And I thought that I was just and I was, mind you, I was still going to meetings. I was still in a relationship. I was still like, you know, a part of this community, but I was slowly >> shifting that center back to Hunter. >> Yeah. >> And that was what was creeping in and and my life started to get dry again. >> And I started to kind of like >> get really Yeah. I was like a raw nerve flapping in the wind, but I didn't even know it. It was all happening under my nose like subconsciously. It was just this nature was creeping back in. And I'm doing I'm checkboxing everything. I'm still going to this. I'm still reading. I'm still praying. My prayers were just very hollow, very shallow, very me centered in a way. And um [clears throat] and yeah, I brought dude I brought my parents out. They flew out to come see my one year and like I put like a suit on and like went to like take my chip and like my friend uh Ted describes it as like when when we were at [snorts] meetings he shares about it. I was like, "Yeah, dude. Hunter was going around freaking running for mayor, dude. He was signing babies and freaking dude it was crazy. It was like Hunter was like arrive dude. He was taking his Nobel Prize of sobriety and uh I just had this conception that like you know I had arrived and uh I had a lot to learn and and I ended up uh my the girlfriend I was dating at the time, she broke up with me. I lost and got fired from the job that I was working at >> uh because of my ego. I was butting heads with the head chef and I was starting to kind of like think I knew better and I was starting to let my arrogance creep back in and I was like unteachable and so they let me go and and uh yeah I was starting to get smug and and make passive comments and make myself selfish and was emotionally unavailable in my relationship again >> and uh yeah she dumped me lost that job and things started to kind of like slowly and I started to feel anxiety creep back in and I slowly started to feel like oh man this is like unmanageable and I was at meetings and I wasn't feeling that spark again and I was something's missing. And I was like, what's what's going on? Like losing the juice, right? It's like it's kind of like that scene in Spider-Man when like the original one where Peter Parker's like he can't like he's slowly starting to lose like his freaking thing because he's getting like depressed or whatever is going on and something's happening. and uh and I ended up uh going back to a former doctor that I had and I I slowly started to manipulate my way and uh looking for an outside resource instead of looking into the realm of like you know what I had learned and the things that got me here to begin with. I slowly started to grasp for straws and things on the outside and uh I ended up getting uh a prescription. I ended up kind of like weasling my way into a uh looking back I was like, you know, I was just going to my doctor and be like, "Oh yeah, my ADHD is really acting up. Like my thoughts are racing again." And like I was like starting to describe all these symptoms, but it was just because I had stopped being like of service. I had stopped being uh prayerful. I had stopped like, you know, >> uh seeking God. I stopped being Yeah. I just stopped all the >> stopped working your program. >> Even though you're still going to meetings and even >> Yeah. And I'm doing everything on the outside, but I had become hollowed on the inside, right? I was very ferocitical in the way that I had, you know, clean the outside of the cup and inside. >> Did you end up getting a prescription for Adderall or for >> Yeah, it was like a a subsect of it was like Viveance. So, it's similar to Adderall. It's just a, you know, ADHD medication. And now I don't have an opinion on what other people do. Uh like I think, you know, I'm not a doctor, so like leave that to your you know, doctor, psychiatrist or whatever. But for me personally, like looking back, like I was trying to find a quick fix, remedy and solution to make me feel better. And I knew in my head, I had taken Adderall before, like recreationally to make let me drink more. And uh I liked upper. So I was just like, yeah, like maybe I can just tell her this and then she'll give me this. And if I have a doctor's label on it, I'm not going to drink out of spite and out of pride because I don't want to embarrass myself and like tell everybody I drank again. That would be that would kill my I would I would lose face, right? And so I uh I weasled my way into that. I thought I rationalized and planned this all out in my head and and literally in a delusional state like not knowing that that's what I was doing. I was just like not that I was like, you know, being possessed to go do it. I knew what I was doing, but it was subconsciously. Yeah. I was just I was doing what I always did. Like I was acting like an addict again and uh starting to keep secrets, starting to lie, starting to like minimize things and compromise my integrity. And and I weasled my way into this and I got my doctor. She's tried and she tried every option. She was like, "We can have this non-narcotic. We'll experiment with this or whatever." And I was like, "Nah, that stuff really doesn't work." Whatever. Like, I want the good stuff. Like, I was like, you know, I didn't say that. I, you know, weasled my way into it and eventually got what I wanted. And I blew through a 30-day supply within like a week. I started like, it was like right, it was literally like it picked right back up. I took that and I remember it gave me that it scratched that itch and it was like back to the races. Like all of a sudden, it was like >> everything had just it all came flooding back in. And um, and uh, yeah, it was like a week into it. I remember I finally got honest with myself. I ran out of the prescription and it was going to be three more weeks till I had to get it refilled so that I didn't I could keep everybody not knowing that I blew through the supply. But I was like, "Holy crap." And like I started to get withdrawals. I wasn't sleeping. And I remember like being on speed in a meeting like freaking zooming. And I remember like sitting there and like >> just being like, "Dude, what am I doing? Like dude, you're loaded. Like you're high right now." And I was abusing my medication. And I was like, "Oh my god." And I I had this like moment of like clarity and I was like, "Dude." And I remember because I ran out uh I was uh house managing for a sober living. I was essentially just like a lead dork in a house of dorks who people who were trying to get sober and they gave me the keys and responsibilities to dish out meds and like I was very lowly qualified to do that. But I had a meds safe in my room and I was giving meds out to clients that were there at the sober living. Uh, and one of the guys was prescribed uh, Aderal and I remember I ran out of my prescription and I went and I stole somebody else's medication. I like got into the safe because I had access to it and I had siphoned some of his and uh, >> and that was when I was like, "Dude, like what are you doing?" Like I I'm breaking the law. I'm like breaking the code of ethics of like, you know, this job and my place to live. I'm compromising all this stuff again. And I was like, cuz I remember they went to do a a med count and the guy, >> you know, anybody who's on medication, they know how, especially when you're an addict and alcoholic. Like, we know how much is in the bottle, dude. It's [laughter] like, you're not going to get by me. You can't just refill it and like throw something in there. He's like, and I remember like uh giving him his last men like, "Oh, man. You're uh you know, you need to get a refill. We need to order like another thing." And he was like, "There should be two more." And he was like he was like right on it. He was like, "There should be two more. Why is there not two more? What happened? I I counted them last time." And like he kind of like caught me and I was like, "Oh, dude. I I wonder if it was like a transfer mistake from your last center or whatever. I'll go look into it or whatever. And I kind of got like caught and uh in my head and I was like, "Oh god." And I could easily have like lied. There was a moment there was this moment of clarity where I was like, "Oh my god, you're relapsed, dude. Like you're out and you've been lying to everybody again." And there was a moment where I describe it as like I had the match in hand. Like I had the match. There was gas everywhere. I just spent the whole time putting gasoline over everything. And the match was in my hand where I was like, "Well, you're out. like you're loaded, bro. And it's like, well, I had saved up some money at this time. I'm starting to gain some momentum. I got some like money in my bank account. And I'm like, well, >> and there's a choice between, well, I can just dive right in. >> Well, if I'm out, I was like, I can go out with a bang and then come back or whatever. Uh, and there was this little moment and window of where I was just like, dude, I could just burn it all down right now. And I fully accepted the fact that like, you're going to have to go take a newcomer uh chip again and you're going to have to like tell everybody what you did. You're going to have to get honest. And there I I all that fear came up and there was this little moment of where it's like dude and I had all the flashbacks of like that humbling experience and literally the thought came of that experience the night I tried to take my life where it's like dude you're going to end up right back there >> if you don't get honest right now. And I picked up the phone and I called uh I called a friend and I called uh you know an advocate of somebody who's in the in the program and um and dude it saved my life. He was like, "Where are you right now?" And I was like, "I'm at home. Dude, I'm freaking out. I I've been abusing medication. I don't know what to do." And he's like, "We need to go to a meeting." He's like, "It was just that simple." He's like, "I'm going to come pick you up." And he drove right to my house. He picked me up and we went and uh got it out of the way. I told him everything. Called my other mentor, called some friends. I called the guy who ran that house that I lived at and told him that I just stole this client's medication. I've been loaded for a month or for a couple weeks now and I'm not sober. And I was just like, I'm not going to pass a piss test and >> like, you have every right to fire me. I don't know where I'm going to live, but if you want to give me a week or a couple days to pack up my stuff, I'll figure it out. I just told him everything. Um, and in that moment, um, people were there for me. Uh, we don't shoot our wounded in um, >> in recovery, man. We don't ostracize people. We don't, you know, when we make a mistake, we don't, you know, um, I don't know. We we don't cast people out uh of our site. Like we we bring them even in even closer if they're willing and want to. Now, there's people and and I had that opportunity. I could have went a different way and and they would have been like, "Okay, well, when you're ready to come back, then you always have a seat here. We'll leave a light on for you and keep your seat warm." But, um when I embraced it and I faced back into it and I faced that reality, I came back in with my tail tucked between my legs and I was embarrassed and shameful, but I got honest. >> I [snorts] had that re feeling of relief all over again. and and uh >> and yeah, it was embarrassing and and uh I had to, you know, deconstruct it and talk about it with everybody and let them know what was happening. And everybody else could kind of see it. They're like, "Yeah, Hunter, you were getting a little too big for your britches there, dude. You were going around like you were Mr. Sobriety with a year, dude. Like, that's not a long time." And so, um I was like, "Why didn't you tell me anything?" And they're like, "Well, we can't judge people or whatever." [laughter] And I was like, "You could have told me I was steering into the jetty, bro." like um and we were laughing about it and I could like you know and and the guy gave me a second chance, another he's become a really good friend. Uh he actually started a treatment center and I get to help him run some groups here and there and u he gave me another chance and didn't like kick me out because I got honest with him and uh >> and I remember going to a um an older uh gentleman and I shared it at a meeting kind of let everybody know what happened and was talking about my spiritual life and I was trying to get to the answer. I was trying to outsmart it again. I was like grasping at trying to be like, "Well, this is where I know I went wrong and this is the point and if I just do this better next time and then I'm just going to get back on my program." And I had all the answers, right? I would like, "Okay, well now I figured it out." And this this I remember this old guy walked up to me. I don't remember how much time he had, probably over 20 years. This older dude in his 60s or 70s. He just walked up to me kind of like candy. He like looked me up and down. He was like, "Hunter." And I was like, "What's up? How's it going?" And uh he was like, "You need a bigger God." He was like, "The God that you're talking about and working with, it's not big enough." He's like, "I think you're going to need a bigger God." And walked away from me. And I was like, "What the hell was that? What does he mean?" I was like, >> and I just sat there and I was like, "That was weird." I was like, "What an asshole." And I just like kind of like walked away, but I like it just struck me where I was like, >> "Holy crap." like and I and I remember like going back through I was reading that night and I was kind of like trying to break down some stuff and and um I just sat there I was like you need a bigger God and I was like and I got honest with myself again and I sat there and I was just thinking in my room and I was like dude like I I'm my own God right now and I really looked back at all the decisions I made. I could look back and I'd already written it out and I'd already kind of gone through the details and I was like holy crap you became God again. >> Yeah. and I took the reigns and I realized like dude I was never submitted to anything and uh and that struck me where I was like dude I build a house of sand. Um yeah and that was my entry point. So I started talking to people uh reading some more literature and there was some encouragement where people were like dude go see where religious people are right like make use of what they have to offer. There's plenty of books and things that you can go out like, "Hey, this is just like this program, like these meetings is like spiritual elementary school. Like this is kindergarten, dude. Like this is just where we learn. You need to go and like seek out people like and I was like that's not a bad thing cuz there's a lot of people in the sphere of obviously recovery who are like very anti- relligion a lot like how I was too. Very talking down and like pessimistic and not pessimistic but like just like very prejudiced and passive aggressive towards people of faith. And like I kind of even saw those people who were open about their faith and stuff too. Uh that they were like made fun of or they were kind of corny and they were just like eh yeah whatever. Um but I remember kind of like looking back and like need a bigger God. And I know that guy uh that older guy he was a he was a Christian and he would talk about the Bible sometimes. He wouldn't like force it on people or whatever. He would share from his experience and people would like kind of laugh and like look at him and not take him serious sometimes. But >> I started to rethink in my head. I would look at I look back at all the people that I knew in recovery and I started reading again and there was like talking about how like you know religious people actually kind of have a pretty good idea of what this life's all about and at least if anything they're able to like live their life with some like hope, satisfaction and peace that maybe we don't have. So maybe it would be good to go and maybe learn from them. And there's things and again it it stays very neutral on the topic but >> I remember like looking at a lot of people and the people who I knew in the program >> uh who didn't believe in God or were very nuanced and vague and kind of had the conception that I had. >> There was a lot of like arrogance. There was a lot of like white knuckling. There was a lot of like they weren't bad you know overall they were still of you know being of service. They were still doing things but I noticed a very tangible difference. It was like they had to they had to like do sobriety through a fire hose. And like I they constantly need to be, you know, in meetings. They constantly need >> doing sobriety through a fire hose. >> Yeah. And and uh I remember I went back to that same uh person and and uh he was like, "Look, man, you can't wear he's like, "You need to wear your sobriety like a loose garment. Um not like a straight jacket." And um >> that was another thing that I heard and and it was like very impactful in this kind of climate of me seeking out maybe my conception of God was minuscule and I needed a bigger one. Um but I started to like look at and observe these people and the people who like didn't have this conception of God who never talked about prayer. It was always me me I I I what I do how I work all the people that I freaking mentor and all the people that I you know I go to this me I know the book front to back and I do this and I know all the history and all the things that I did prop myself up on this intellectual pride of what I thought I knew. They seemed like they were like sprinting and it was constantly like it was there was a tensity about it. There was this like you know and they were good and they helped a lot of people. It was undeniable the fact that they like and they had a lot of time too. And a lot of those people like it worked for them, but they were also like very like irritable and they would have this like edge to them and there was still like they were still struggling with the same kind of resentments and they kind of had some they would gossip a lot and they would uh >> you know they're very hyper like you know sexual in a lot of ways or like where I I would go into conversations after meetings and stuff and >> you know they have a wife and they're talking about this like you know girl that they're see whatever on the side. So there was a lot of like morally kind of vague things and hey you know we're not the arbiter of anybody's decision. I'm not the judge but like I started to see a difference and then I would also see these other people who were religious or had a very deep uh affection towards their spiritual walk and their prayer life and their conception of God and that's like all they talked about. The more that I kind of like looked at them dude they like levitated into the room >> and it was like they were wearing theirs like a loose garment. They're like, "Yeah, you know, I" And they just talked in a way where they had this sense of like peace about them and [snorts] this ease and this almost seemed like >> I think that's maybe where I didn't take them so serious at the time because it was like, "Oh, they don't take this program. They're not gritty." >> Yeah. They're not all like, you know, hyper and then passionate. I was like I I saw passion and like fire and flare and edge as because it was immature and relatable to how I was, you know, when I was new. That was attractive to me where I It was exciting and it was like kind of punk rock and like very like whoa dude like that's sick and that had become kind of like my brand and uh there was a lot of spiritual ambiguity and and vagueness about it all and it was just like well you can make up whatever my uh it was just changing the goalposts of morality constantly and that was like exhausting for me and it led me to get loaded again and so I was like so I started to look at these other people who had a very firm grounding and and uh >> and they just seemed to have this ease and they were always kind of like happy and they would struggle with things But they were vulnerable about it. They just, >> it seemed like they were free >> in a way where they weren't like constantly white knuckling and like, you know, >> ah, I need to do this all the time and and uh they were just like, yeah, I do the best I can. I do this. And they gave credit to God every time. >> Yeah. >> And that was like, >> whoa. I noticed that. That was the first like tangible difference. >> Yeah. And so you you end up this guy tells you >> you need a bigger God. You go back to him and you go, "What do you mean?" [laughter] And does he point you in the direction of Christianity and of Jesus or does he maintain kind of like keep seeking it out? >> Well, um I had gone back to the original guy who mentored me um and kind of talked to him about it and >> come to find out he's a Christian. >> Yeah. And um and I kind of knew that vaguely, but I never like took on his brand. And he never pushed it on me. I think that was the thing is like he never he was just trying to create an environment where I could get sober, learn these principles, and Hansel and Gretle me to a position where I could go explore that for myself and come to the and arrive at truth. But if I asked him and I was like, "You never told me." And I would go to these people, I'm like, "You never told me you were this." They're like, "You never asked." It's like, "Yeah, I don't. If you ask me about it, I'll tell you about it." Yeah, I go to church. Like I read the Bible. I do this. And I was like, and it was common. I started going to these people who talked a lot about God and I would ask them questions like, "Hey, what's your conception of God look like?" I don't know if that's like personal cuz in all these other groups or all these other people, it was very taboo to talk about. We don't share. It's very private. That's a private matter. Like I don't And it's reality when I looked at it, it's cuz they didn't know what the hell their god was. And I was like, they just they didn't know how to articulate and describe it. So, it was still uncomfortable for them >> cuz it was it meant that they would have to surrender their own control, right? And uh but these other people who talked about it, they it was they described this very beautiful um yeah a sense of of like submission in a way that was like >> a father like a child is submitted to his father and feels safe >> and protected like everything's going to be okay. This this was like this commonality. And the more I kind of like sought that and started asking people questions, the more I realized like, oh, there's a lot of people who are like, you know, and but then immediately my mind would snap shut of like, well, Christianity has this and like, yeah, but like God sends people to hell. Really? The flood happened. Like, okay, yeah, give me a break. And I would like go through all the like Sunday school kind of like surface level understanding that I had of the Bible. And I would write it off and be like, yeah, but I can't. And then like on loop every time that initial spiritual experience I had with the book of Job would keep coming back up. But it would always be like this little it was always like a quiet little thought and like a quiet little voice inside that like but you had this happen to you like don't you remember like there was something when you went and like looked and I was like okay >> and I remember uh I started to kind of like become open to that and I dealt with more of the resentment aspect of it and I I so I started like investigating and I started looking online. I started getting some helpful literature and I started going down the rabbit hole of like every religion. And at first I was like, well, I'm not going to go just look at this. I'm going to look at everything. So I started looking into the Quran. I started looking into Judaism. I started looking at like into Hinduism. I started looking into a lot of these thousands of other little like weird pagan kind of like, you know, schools of thought. I looked into like mysticism and and um just a lot uh metaphysical stuff, even voodooism. I started looking into uh even stoicism like a lot just a lot of these schools. I thought like what is this spiritual aim? And I started to realize this commonality that a lot of these things actually make like a truth claim. And I started to really get in the weeds of like what is religion and what are they all trying to say? Because in my head I think everybody has this surface level thing of like all these religions are just saying the same thing. They just have a different thing and it's all pointing to the same direction. And that was my thing to everyone leads to God. There's a thousand ways to go. Just pick one. That's what I heard a bunch of times and I was like okay that seemed easy and I was like okay so I can go everywhere that I want >> and it'll eventually lead me down. >> Yeah. But the more that you start to investigate these different religions, they all have these different intense truth claims that aren't cohesive to each other, right? >> They were contradictory. And that was what I started to find out. And there was a lot of beautiful things. And now it's like I'm not, you know, I I believe in what I believe now, but at that time like there was a lot of beauty in it. Like I saw the reverence that like a lot of Muslims had for their like you know rigidity and how they um you know practice prayer and reverence and and it was like there was some beautiful parts of that too. But then I would start to see >> you know when you really read the Quran and you really see like what it means to have like Sharia Allah like taking place and what it means to like actually when that becomes like an Islamic state. I started to look at the culture and the history, not just the literature itself, but I looked at that and actually looked at like what Muhammad wrote. And then I looked at, okay, what does this look like practically and how it's, you know, derived in society. And you look at all these states who are ran by that. I'm like, >> okay, that's gnarly. I cannot I couldn't take that. >> I would scratch that and be like, "Yeah, that's not I can't look into that. That's crazy." And uh >> and then I would look into like Buddhism and I'm like, "Oh, wow. This is like nice. You can like do this." And it's like a lot of self-abandonment and a lot of like clearing, a lot of like but then it was like wait this is just I'm God again. I was like it's just reaching this state of like nirvana and this infinite loop and like >> and then I looked into like even Greek mythology and like Hinduism where there's all these different gods for all these different things and I'm like but then they all get in like kind of arguments with each other and there's this narrative of like different paintings of different gods uh natures and how they deal with different things and I'm like >> Vishnu in all of his different forms >> 100%. And uh and I started looking at it just and then I'd look back to science cuz I prided myself as like a believer in science. So then I'd look back and there was actually this commonality of where how everything like observably I looked at nature and science in general where I'm like if uh all these things were created and they're so cohesively unified together and there's this there was this awe inspired wonder that I started to find in nature and even in food where I started to see how everything was so >> like the fine-tuning argument everything was so complex and deeply related to one another uh even something as simple as like evaporation in clouds and how like water goes back up, it comes back down, it gets and just everything on how like the body he heals itself and how and I look back to all these men of science. I got really into like I started listening to this guy John Lennox and I started listening to a lot of like these philosophers and how early scientists like uh Isaac Newton and um even Albert Einstein, they were theists and they believed and like deduced from what they had found. uh and even um Stephen Hawking had deduced that there was a beginning like the big bang, right? and all these theories and I just started anyways like >> I'm trying not to like there's so many rabbit holes I can get down but I started to investigate and go down >> all of these conceptions and it gave me something to pour into and now I I I was just really wrestling I was wrestling with it and I was finding a lot of uh uh yeah things I never thought about before and and I was kind of questioning my own morality and my own conception. And I realized I had such a shallow, ignorant, uneducated perception on on >> creation and [snorts] science and theory and and uh philosophy and all these questions of like objective and subjective morality and where we get this from and if God if there is a creator of intelligence, how could it be multiple if all these things are cohesively? It looks like there's only one author because it's all so perfectly intertwined together. Anyways, I just started rationalizing all this stuff and I would like cross-examine different religions with one another and I would look at like the fruits of actually how that plays out in culture and society and I was just doing all this stuff and making like my own assessment and trying to be as objective as possible while avoiding kind of like really the common uh hat tilt and nod that all these religions made which was this Jesus guy. M >> and there was always some reference or connection back to whatever this religion school of thought was on Jesus and it was almost never negative. >> Um or there was a roundabout way where they denied the validity or the deity of him but they said that he's one of the ways and they would kind of there was always an echo and a pointing and this kind of like >> nod or notion to him and I was like I kept like going down the more I would go down the rabbit hole the more Jesus would pop up. >> Yeah. And the more I would like start to see that and uh long story short, I start to deduce all these things and then I I have to like look back into the Bible and I start going down the historical and archaeological uh a lot like Lee Stroel did. I read the case for Christ and I felt kind of like very relatable to him where I was almost like going in >> like I did with all these other religions that I was looking at with the effort to >> not even just disprove it but to find truth. >> Yeah. and to see like put the burden of evidence on you to prove this but also me to objectively say well if I can't come up with this answer and I am dissatisfied with the answer that this uh religion claims then the burden of proof falls on me to answer that question >> like if there is no objective reality or objective morality and it's just subjective >> well I have to come up with that and I actually have to play that out and actually the logic and buck falls on me like I can't just say well I don't know what it is and just come up like that doesn't satisfy for me. Again, if I don't figure this out, like I'm going to get loaded again. That was that kind of loaded gun where I was like, I need to figure this out. And uh I had a lot of fun doing that. And I was starting to go to like >> I went to [snorts] some temples and went to some Buddhist like, you know, things. There's like a temple in Costa Mesa I went to and would go to these meditation meetings and I just the more I read the more and I would experiment with some of that stuff and I went to like a sound bath and like some of these like things and uh breath works and stuff and and dude it was just like I could just see the paper tiger that it was where I was just like this is I don't feel anything here. This is all seems like nice in theory, but I'm like, "This isn't answering. It's like avoiding all the hard-hitting questions that [clears throat] >> I started to see that Christianity took head on and that they're actually the more you dove into it, there was more evidence than I gave it credit for." >> And uh, you know, I started reading these books and I read, you know, Case for Christ. I started listening to the the Oxford mathematician John Lennox and a lot of his conceptions. Frank Turk was a big influential uh, figure in their theories and conceptions. I even listened to like Richard Dawkins and a lot of these other atheists. And I noticed that all the atheists that were out there and that were against religion never talked about these other religions. It was always Christianity. It was always this out and this like razor's like edge of crosshairs on Jesus. >> Well, >> I was like none of these other religions really get persecuted and kind of like >> thrown through the mud like Christianity. Like everybody and when you talk about everybody else's religious prejudice, it's always Christianity. >> And and I was like, okay, maybe that's because we live in the West. We're under Judeo-Christian values. And so people's just commonality. We don't live in in Syria, Saudi Arabia, these other Muslim influenced places. So maybe that's because we have the prejudice of what we know, right? But then I started to look into it and I'm like, well, no, when a lot of Muslim people like leave their place too, they don't make it their vendetta to go against and what they just walk away kind of well, I don't know. I don't want to speak for all people, but I just noticed these different commonalities. There was a huge harshness and hostility >> uh and prejudice towards Jesus and towards Christianity. And uh and some of it was valid. Some of it was because of a lot of the hypocrisy that I saw. Some of it was a lot of these schools of thought and like things I looked into Mormonism and the Book of Mormon and that whole >> side of, you know, whatever you want to call that. Um, and I I I just kind of lumped it all together and the more that I started to see clarity in it, the more I I I started to find that it actually held a better shape of what life was all about. And the more I started to see the parallels in it with my recovery, through my experience, too. I saw these like truths the more that I looked into it. And I was avoiding actually reading the Bible. I was reading a lot about the Bible and commentaries and people's arguments about it. And I was really getting down into the nitty-gritty and reading into like early church fathers and their um perceptions, St. Augustine and um St. Ignatius and just trying to absorb and seek objectively and poking my toes in the water because all these things kept pointing back towards this Jesus guy that I wanted to neatly evade and avoid, but he kept coming up again. And so I was like, "All right, like let's >> let's" And the more that I did, man, the more that >> that same feeling would come up >> when I would investigate >> Christianity, even I would wrestle with some stuff and I'd be like, "Dude, the God in Exodus is freaking a dickhead." Like that was literally [laughter] like things that I would come to like the conclusion in my mind and but I would wrestle with it and I was like is he or are you being and I would I would dude it was just this thing and I was luckily I was gifted with I think enough humility from humiliation that I had done in my life uh where I think a lot of addicts and alcoholics have where it's like we are so used to like wrecking our own life to where it's like I can be objective in a way that some people can't like I can kind of throw I can see my bias in things where I know that I'm biased. I know that I could be wrong and I can look at that and play the tape back and forth and I can look at it from both sides. I have to like >> But this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Like it's just I I really love that even in the midst of this and again I've never heard you talk about this side of your your story and and how you explored all these different religions and everything but like I said like I feel like you're somebody that's just so not afraid to dive down the rabbit hole >> and >> cuz I had all the I had all the questions and I wanted to pick it apart but I needed to see where do I get that from? And so I mean at at what point like was there a was there like a thing or a sentence or a poem or a something that you you read and it was like oh dang dude this might this might be it or do you feel like it was ants and a gradual thing that happened? >> It was a gradual thing for sure. Um I don't think I came to Christianity seeking heaven. And I came kind of backing away from hell >> and that road was really long. And uh and I just had all these questions and the more that I prompted all this stuff, the more I got fascinated with it because then I realized, wow, I have a lot I actually want to know the answer to these things. And I was like, it was forcing me to do thought experiments and think about stuff that I'd never thought about in my free time where I was like, dude, I need to know this and like answer this because I don't know what the answer is. and that and if things play out the way that I think that they do or if I'm a naturalist materialist, you know, life's bleak and it's meaningless and like actually killing myself would probably be the best option. And like I started to get those thoughts and I started to feel that tension. And like I [snorts] said, the more that I investigated Christianity, uh, the more that I looked into it, even with times where I was like protesting and I was like wrestling and kind of like angry at what I read or looked at and like, "Yeah, see," and I was almost playing the adversary to it, I couldn't help but find that feeling. And it was a similar feeling to what I had that night that I prayed for the first time and that I read the book of Job. >> It was like a a presence or there was just this little feeling. It was like this tingling kind of like You know that feeling like when you maybe you had this with Lauren like uh this nervous excitement that you have like right before a first date or like >> before you're about to maybe you had it before you proposed. I know I had it before I asked my girlfriend to be my girlfriend or like you know like or you got to meet >> the proposing one was more of like a >> of [laughter] course. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but like the feelings of just thinking about it or even experimenting with the thoughts of like what and just that kind of romant. It's a romantic like almost captivating kind of like exciting like draw and I was like every time I looked into Christianity there was that and I [clears throat] couldn't deny that. I was like what is that? There was attraction. >> We we talk about this all the time on the podcast. This just comes up all the time because it was a super influential book for me and for so many other people too. But uh Fathered by God, Jonathan Aldridge, right? >> John Aldridge is right. He talks about there's that whole section where he talks about um >> uh you know the the romance of God and how he does like he's he's the author of of woo and he's the author of intimacy and enticement and like all of these things like God draws us to himself. There is genuinely a a romance that can happen um from the Holy Spirit. And so you're saying that that's that's what was kind of happening during those times. And the more I read like the creation account and objectively started to look and I had to have like a hand in grounded because like I got I would have to like tie like an anchor to like reality and my meetings and sobriety then I could go off and like explore all this stuff but I couldn't drown myself in it cuz I would get very nihilistic and very scared and I would like kind of get down the rabbit hole of like does anything matter? And I would like get down. He's like, you think about your own existence sometimes for long enough and it's scary and like I would start to really contemplate all this stuff and I was really stretching my brain of how much I could really think and hold these thoughts. Um, >> and it was exciting and it was fun, but I would have to like go back and I I kept a really big tie to nature and that was my biggest thing was like creation. And that was a big thing for me was like evidence of like what I see all around me. And I'm like, dude, like there is so much beauty and meaning >> in life and like the only one that really answers like all of that is Christianity. I'm like, it's just starting to give like this answer. And I started to see the characteristic of God. And I started to look at the root of like take all the objective things that maybe Christians have done wrong all the time, but I looked at like the authorship of it and the evidence for it really and the claims that it made where it was like they actually have an answer. And um and when it's really played out, it's a beautiful tradition in religion. And I was like, dang. Like and and I just started to think and read like the testimonies of Jesus. And I started to see its correlation with what I had already learned in recovery. But now I had a location of where that came from. I had an origin point where I was like, "This is where that came from." I read Sermon on the Mount, I started reading >> like the gospels and I just objectively like started to see these. And it just, dude, I'm telling you, the more I read the Bible, when I finally got over that hump, there was no like moment, but I started to look into it more, >> it just it I was like I'd get hungrier for it. And um >> I I dude even talking about it now it's like dang um I wish I could go back there sometimes or I try to reproduce this now as a Christian like that initial fire and hunger and tenacity like it was all new >> and that was like me just on this love affair dating God without even knowing it and I didn't really know. >> Yeah. >> Um and another thing too I just start I started praying to Jesus. I started I would experiment with all these things. I would like pray and fill my mind with like maybe I'm praying to Allah right now or maybe I'm trying to manifest this self-affirmation into my consciousness through this, you know, mantra or this thing I just need to say on repeat. And none of that ever really like did it for me. It was just kind of like me. I don't know. It just felt bleak and dumb. And uh but when I would start to pray to Jesus or God and seeing the way that these other characters in the biblical text would describe their prayer life of like Paul talking about this like loving submission and Jesus as a friend when Jesus is talking to the disciples and they're asking these questions. It was more seeing him like you said in Fathered by God like as a father figure. Like that was enticing to me where it was like >> dang like he in this description is like very interested in human affairs and is interested. But again I had that notion of like what I learned in sobriety where it's like dude God didn't cause this horrific you know theater of crap like we caused that. Like we're not victims you know it's like we >> caused this and we're suffering for that. And I just it started to answer a lot of these questions and I could start to rationale and see it. And uh so I started church shopping and long story short, I started navigating through I found some churches I was uncomfortable with. I got encouraged from some other people and I started to go around to these different church groups and uh you know I had some like experiences with some churches where I would like I I was out the gate leading with like I'm an alcoholic. I just got loaded. I struggle with all this stuff. I've been to jail. I need to figure this out and I don't believe in this and you need to answer this question. And I would go right down the rabbit hole with just your average like worship night goer or whatever at like these [laughter] like churches and they'd be like I could see they were out of their death and I'm like I need to talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about. >> And I was like trying to go and I was asking these questions and I would go to people and I would kind of be very like >> tell me about this. What do you know about this? Yeah. What about this? Like um >> yeah, tell me about the Gnostic Gospels. What about the Gospel of Thomas? Like you need to tell me about this. Like and I would I had all these conceptions and questions and I and I slowly started to kind of like get answers and I would find people who were like oh and it felt that inauthentic kind of like and and they just didn't know. They weren't really very prepared and I was very aggressive and very forward in the way that I went about it like this freaking tattooed guy like walking up to you like I'm an alcoholic. I need to I need to help you. I need to figure this out. Who is God? Like it probably scared a lot of people away. And uh that's not really how I was, but I was also very like cards to my chest kind of intellectually prideful of like and it really what it was was fear and insecurity. Like I was like, I don't want you to hurt me, but I need an answer. Like I need help and I don't know where to get it from and I don't even know why I'm here, but I need help and I need answers to these questions. So I started going to these places and [gasps] and I would hear messages and I would hear sermons and I would sit and what really captivated me was like the worship. >> And I remember [clears throat] this response. I couldn't help. I'd be sitting in like worship and I would get emotional and I would start crying and I would be like, "Why the why am I crying?" I was like, "This is gay, dude. This is dumb. Like, why am I this whatever? These people are all singing. This is nice. Sure, whatever." But then I would like hear the lyrics and I would read it and I'd look around and see all these people like >> just worshiping in a way that [clears throat] was like it would just draw something out of me and I was like, "This is crafted by this. They're trying to elicit this response." It's like when I listen to Jimmyi Hendricks on guitar and I get goosebumps down my back, dude. It's the same thing. It's connected the same way. So, it's like this isn't really God, but there was something different. >> And I was like, >> and I started to kind of like >> slowly listen to more, and I would start to listen to worship in my car, and I would start to like look at things. And >> slowly but surely, I I started to really see this evidence. And and my life started to get better. And uh and I was applying this stuff that I learned into like my recovery. And like >> slowly but surely, like I could like loosen my straight jacket a little, dude. And like things weren't as like a big deal. And I was like I was finding satisfaction and peace. And the whole experience was intense. Like the more that I would investigate like Islam, Judaism and all these other religions, there was always a tense anxious kind of tight spring feeling. The more that I looked down Christianity, it was like that spring would get looser and I would find an answer. And you dig deep enough in any conception, I don't care how deep it is, the Bible will have an answer >> and there will be a like way that you can reconcile that. I have never found it not to be true. No matter how >> not you disagree with the answer, right? if you can accept that answer, but it always does have the answer for the questions. >> It does. It does have an answer and there's almost an undeniable infallibility about it where it's like, yeah, you might not like it, but that doesn't make something untrue >> in a way, you know, like I can not like that people die, that doesn't make it untrue. Yeah. Even though that hurts my feelings, like >> it just, >> you know, and there's a lot of conceptions we see in our world now and today of what's so socially acceptable of what is going to offend or hurt people's feelings, but that doesn't make it like untrue. No matter how much you want it to be true and how much you identify with this or how much you want to like >> make it true in your mind so that you can be whatever social, you know, uh freaking validity or status that you're trying to get from this weird acceptance of looking for God and all these other places, it never really satisfies. M >> and I was smart enough from my own uh not smart from a virtuous way but I was wise enough from my own mistakes and my own failures to know >> uh I was finding God's will because I knew what God's will wasn't and I knew what it was like to live out outside of God's will. And so the more I started to enter that the more I felt the difference. Yeah, >> I had such a sharp contrast because of the hellish experiences that I live that the more I started to enter this answer all those things and I was like >> I was like I can get down with that and I see how that makes sense. That's aggressive. But then the more I looked at all the context and you really the Bible demands you to like need to know scripture and look deep into the history and look into why this is saying what this is saying. You can't just pull anything out of context. You need to know the whole book and you need to know the books before it and after it of why this is all interconnected. It's the most hyperl piece of literature written over the course of 4,000 years by 40 something different author authors over the span of all of this stretch of time that is all so interlin and connected. It's a story and people can say that it was like you know >> whatever [snorts] >> there's so I mean it's really interesting too even you you talking about it in that context there's this guy uh Malcolm Gite who's an amazing priest and poet and he's like this incredible guy I've been consuming so much of his content more recently but he's a he's a storyteller and he talks about the context of the Bible and of religion um as being really hard for us to comprehend >> uh in our culture and day and age right now because >> we aren't as much of an oral culture, as much of a storytelling culture as we used to be. And like you said, the Bible requires you to to read the whole book. >> And that seems in our culture like what are you talking about? I can't just open it up and like understand a little thing and I can't watch an 8-second reel and like get the the full context of what this is saying. But [clears throat] instead, it's like, no, these people who this book was written to had already heard these stories [clears throat] before >> because it was told to them by their fathers and their father's fathers over and over and over again. These stories were something that they would know. So when we go to read a a section in the book of, you know, of Romans when Paul is talking about the Jewish stories and how they relate to now this Jesus >> things right away, people are like, "Ah, I get that." >> Exactly. because they had heard it from their oral culture. And so I think it's one of those that um I don't know that that has just Malcolm has been talking about that a lot. It's just been blown my mind, too. >> Awesome. >> Yeah. >> Um Hunter, thank you so much, bro. We just you >> gave me two hours of your time and you're [clears throat] here talking with us and it's it's >> unbelievable. >> And through all that journey, man, I got exposed to people like at the church that we go to. Like one thing led to another. God started putting people into my life and uh I found a church where I it was a happen chance. I met somebody at I was fasting one day cuz I was experimenting with it. I had heard that that was a thing to do to get close to God. I was trying to like find answers and I felt like I was reaching a dead end in community. That was the kind of end standstill uh is where I found that I like just didn't feel like I belonged anywhere and I couldn't bring this up in the sphere of like wanting to talk about this stuff in my recovery community. Everybody was like they don't know what you're talking about or I don't believe in it was kind of taboo. And so that was the thing that I was praying. I was like, "God, I need to I need to meet people that know more about you and I want people to teach me and I want to feel like I can really be honest because I'm scared and I feel lonely again. I feel like I'm on an island and um >> and I want to know more about you." And I was doing my own readings and I was like >> coming to conclusions and getting my mind blown and it was really exciting, but I felt like I had nobody to share that with or talk about it with. And uh I could go down YouTube and read all this stuff too, but it was just like >> there's something about sitting across from somebody and talking about it. And so I prayed, I fasted one day. Hated it. Got super irritable. And I was like, "Screw this. I'm blowing my fast." I was like, "This sucks." But that was my intention to go into the fast was like to meet people. I get in line. I go to Cabo. I break my fast. And there's a girl in front of me in line. And she's evangelizing to the guy making her food right in front. And I was [snorts] like, "What the heck?" And I remember like talking to her. She tells me about zeal, tells me to come. I come to your parents house uh at the promised child. [laughter] the parent, the promised child like packing little thing. And I'm in there and I'm all like, "Who are these church people?" I'm all liked up and like defensive. But I remember Gavin >> walked right up to me. Our friend Gavin Price freaking walked right up to me and he's like, "Where are you from?" And he was like, "What's your deal? Where?" And he just, "What's your story?" And I kind of gave him this synopsis and like, >> "Yeah, you know, I'm in, you know, I'm I'm in sobriety. I'm looking. I'm like, I don't really know like what I believe, but I've been like reading this stuff and like I got all these questions and I'm just I'm I'm trying to find God." That was kind of like my thing. And he was like, "Oh, dude, I can help you with that." And he was like, "So, he wasn't phased by anything." [laughter] Kind of similar to like what my first mentor I was like telling him, "Oh, you know, I'm an alcoholic, bro. I' I've freaking I've been to jail, dog. Like, I'm I was kind of almost trying to scare him off with like I wanted a certain response." >> Yeah. To like kind of test his freaking gangster or whatever. And he was about that life, dog. Like, Gavin looked at me and he was like, "Yeah, that's sick, dude. Cool." Like, "All right, I don't care. Let's talk about the Bible. Like, do you want to know Jesus?" like, "Dude, I'll talk to you all about this stuff." And I was like, >> "Wo." And Gavin's like his scriptural knowledge and just the environment there where it was normal people, people who had freaking like tattoos and stories and there was just like a climate at at this church that there was just friends and people who did life together and it was foreign to me. It was much a lot similar to the climate that I had in recovery. And and uh I entered into that fellowship. I was met with open arms and patience and people who sat with me and answered all these questions and walked me down to where I couldn't deny it anymore. And um a month later after that, I got baptized and uh I surrendered my life to Jesus and my life has been a whirlwind ever since of beauty and grace and mistakes and now a new set of standards, a new set of morality. And it's gotten harder because of the narrow road that we walk. And uh but it's gotten more enriched and more full and more uh stressful, but in a good way. And um >> I've gotten to meet thousands of people that I can >> yeah commune with and I have an answer to like life now. And I have a hope for today and it es and flows and I know, you know, I just know that everything's going to be okay. There's just this weird peace that I've never experienced that uh only I found in in uh in Jesus, man. And only that I found in what Christianity brings to the table. And it's in the truth, and the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Like he is the missing link and the piece and through what this whole thing is all about. And uh >> and I tried so long to disprove that and not believe in it. And um all of that led me here. And I couldn't ask. I'm living a life that's beyond my wildest dreams. Like my parents are like my best friends. I'm in a relationship with a girl that I'm absolutely in love with. And um I have a fellowship. I have more friends than I can keep up with today because it's just such an expansive like group of people that I have joy with today. I have a prayer life that is intimate and exciting and humbling and that I try to grow every day. I have fellowships and accountability. I have, you know, all the material things, you know, car, business, and stuff like that, too. I'm financially okay because the Lord's blessed me. But most of all, like I am okay with who I sit with in front of the mirror. And that was a foreign concept. And that is only by this path of what I've been led to by the grace of God. And um and yeah, and I'm just trying to live 24 hours at a time. And hopefully I can, you know, reach anybody out there who, you know, has a similar story or experiences or feelings and and know that, you know, there is a way out and there is a God who loves you and there is a personal one and he is who he says he is and uh Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I tried to deny that for so long, but the longer I went down the rabbit hole, the more I couldn't deny it. And uh it's the best decision I ever made. And it's the best thing that ever happened to me. All the things that I went through, all the doom and gloom from that first freaking episode till now was the best thing that could have ever happened to me. I'm grateful for every moment of it. I wouldn't change it because it's crafted me into who I am now. And to have the relationship with God that I have now that has just made it all useful. Um, so that when I sit across from somebody who's at the very starting line of their journey, I know what that's like. And I know I've gotten the privilege to work with a lot of guys and mentor people in sobriety and and uh and a lot of other scopes of of recovery and and life in general. And it's just it's an honor and a privilege and it makes it to where I have a purpose and I'm not a loser. I'm not a you know nobody in the sense of who I thought I was that my life is meaningless, you know, and that I don't deserve to be alive and I shouldn't and I don't care and uh couldn't be farther from the truth today. And um >> and yeah, and that one little pivot, you know, turned into this whole thing of where I hope that I can turn around, put my head on the pillow at night, sober one more time, thank God for another day, and wake up and do it again. And uh we'll see where it it takes me. But I've gotten to travel the world and see everything uh that this life has to offer in beautiful ways. And that I just Yeah, I've been humbled. Humbled for sure. And uh again, it's not by virtue. I'm not a good guy. I'm a piece of crap. But the more that I realize I'm a piece of crap, the more that I realize who the God that we serve and the more that he is able to be patient and graceful and teach me and discipline me and craft me and mold me and show me and point me on the path hopefully towards righteousness to where I can be, >> you know, more made in the image and likeness of his son. And that's it. And it's available to any and everybody. And um yeah, bro, it's a lot, but [laughter] >> yeah, I appreciate you giving me the chance to to talk about it. And um >> 100%, man. Thank you for again, I mean, I I feel like it's it's ending this this twopart backtoback uh you know, episode that we're doing with you. I mean, it's literally 4 hours, 4 and 1/2 hours. >> I'm a yapper, dude. of >> you're getting a glimpse of what goes on in my head where it's just like it like idles at 75 miles [laughter] an hour. But I think it's it's again I I am always um blown away by your just like how just I mean this is full circle Hunter but it's like just like how you're talking about your first time at this meeting and this dude just like telling it how it was >> and just in a way that was like this is who I am and there's a a odd gratitude Mhm. >> that's behind it. >> Mhm. >> You're phrasing things in that way. >> Yeah. >> Which is just wild and amazing and I'm grateful for it and I'm grateful that you got to share your story and I'm grateful that you got to hear it. >> Um, if you need some of these resources, like I said earlier in the beginning, too, we're going to have anonymous groups all linked below and everything for you to go and use those resources. all the books and guys that Hunter was talking about. We're going to link all of their stuff below. If you are curious and if you are uh hopeless or you you're at the end of your rope right now, know that you're not alone. There is hope and we're here for you. You can reach out to Hunter. We're going to put his stuff there. I know that if he gets a DM from you, he's going to be stoked uh to to continue to share his story and walk along whoever needs it. Um and so yeah, you're not alone. Thank you for listening. Of >> course, >> this has been Hunter Buren on the Pivot or Die podcast once again. >> Thanks, buddy. We say to