Pivot Or Die

When people are going through grief, often they're not looking for answers. They're looking for comfort. You You want to grow? It's going to cause pain, but you're going to grow. Why this little guy? Why? What's the purpose you have for us, God? That's what we need in our darkest time is to know we're not alone. Everything that God had led me through was preparing me for that moment. I still don't have an answer for why, and I'm okay with that. Hey everybody, just a disclaimer for this episode. We do talk about some heavy things including child loss and and grief processing through life. So if that's something that you have sensitivity towards, just be advised as you continue on this episode. Thanks. Well, hello everybody. Welcome back to the Pivot or Die podcast. My name is Seth Kaser. I'm your host and today I'm joined again by Jonathan Ferguson. >> Nice to be back. >> U, this is episode two of the Jonathan Ferguson story. And if you guys didn't get a chance to uh listen to the first episode, go back listen to that. It it's already posted right now. Um, and you know, I mean, it we're going to have a real quick um recap of your story a little bit, but I left this podcast studio after our last session and um I was just on the edge of my seat. Um we kind of went through a lot of just your whole life story and got to this big pivotal moment. >> Yeah. >> And we didn't get the chance to then talk about what the the healing from that big moment was. >> And so I'm really excited to dive into that um today. But can we just um can we give a bird's eye view real quick of um what we talked about last time and kind of the the recap of your life a little bit? >> Yeah. Um again, so like I grew up in in in Southern California. Uh church involvement my whole uh you know youth from the time I was like well born pretty much all the way through my whole life. um you know married young uh I was 21 my wife was 19 >> and um just in that journey we felt the call to uh move to Kenya and so we moved to Kenya >> uh as missionaries I was a pastor and so I was able to uh kind of pivot in that way to being a missionary pretty easy >> um we moved to to Kenya helped plant a church there um and during during that time met a little boy named Silas Jabali and >> um just fell in love with him with special needs and health issues. Um he had hydrophilis >> and he was in our home. We adopted him. Uh he was in our home for um 2 years. >> Yeah. uh before there were some major health uh issues that came up in in his life and complications from the hydrophilis that we were on the lookout for but didn't >> it's not necessarily didn't recognize but the real big warning signs didn't show up until >> uh you know two years into having them in our house and >> having him be a part of our our life and um take him into the hospital to see what's going on. And it was within a week of us knowing something was wrong. We end up at the point where we're having to make the choice on to take him off of life support because he had gone into the coma and uh the pressure um his intercraanial pressure was so high >> that even if he had come out uh and somehow woken up the chances of survival Yeah. and a well the chances of having a normal life were zero. >> Yeah. the chances of having basically uh to help maintain a a child who was unable to do anything on his own. >> He would have been completely constrained to a wheelchair, not able to move, been paralyzed basically. um the chances of that happening are were were even that were so low. Yeah. That we had to make that decision and to take him off of life support and >> Yeah. >> he passed away just uh about 2 years after we we brought him into the into the family. >> Yeah. And so how how old was Silus when this happened? >> He was five. >> He was five. Okay. You said he'd been with your family for 2 years. You guys had been in Kenya for how long at that point? >> Uh 7 years. for seven years. Yeah. Okay. >> For seven years we had been in the country. He had been in our home for for the last two of them. >> And um just just recapping as well too, you at this point had had three sons. >> Yep. We had three biological uh sons and then we had adopted our fourth son. >> Yeah. So you you guys um adopt Silus. He's with you for a couple of years. Um, and I mean this is kind of um, you know, I think this is where we kind of got to leave off last time was just kind of in in the height of this going, man, like what what happened in this whole this whole story and then talking about this big decision that you guys had to make to to pull him off of life support and then it was like our time was up. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so I really today am wanting to dive into kind of like from that moment and you guys if you want to go back and and hear the whole rest of that story, we went into detail about everything prior to that and got to build I I just >> we got to build out this whole narrative of who you are a little bit heading into this this crazy season of adversity, this moment that you guys have. And um so today I'm I'm really excited to uh dive in to the healing that happens from there. And so um one of the things though when when we were leaving the studio last um last time we were here filming, you kind of got to speak a little bit more to um to who Silas was a bit. you'd kind of talked about a little bit of the the the personality traits with him and like um even like just told a couple stories as we were heading out of here >> um about who he was. Um would you would you mind sharing a little bit of those? >> Uh yeah, sure. Um Silas, he was one of the most unique individuals I've I've ever met. Um >> here he is. He's literally four, just turning five. And the amount of compassion that he had to other people, the amount of >> um empathy that he had was >> something that uh even healthy grown adults, very few people ever reach that level of understanding and compassion. And it's I know it sounds weird talking about a a four-year-old with that, but one of the things that I always remembered was like he genuinely just loved people. He loved being around people. And >> um we had a neighbor that would walk by like every day. And every day if he was out in the yard, he'd stop he'd walk over to the gate and he'd stop her and ask her how her day was. Hi, Miss Patina. How are you today? >> That's a beautiful dress you have on. >> You know, and just asked like genuine like how are you? Yeah. >> And and really seemed to care about the people he met. >> Yeah. And he's four at this point. He's going to >> he's bouncing on the trampoline and then he's walking over when he sees somebody come by and wants to make sure, you know, to compliment them and to tell them that, you know, I say like, "Oh, how are you doing?" and and and just seemed to really >> want to hear from people. It wasn't just to like hi, >> you know, shouting as he's continuing jumping, but he like went would go out of his way to to go up and talk to people and >> and and >> he loved to meet new people and just, >> you know, talk to them and ask them those questions. And >> again, I I haven't seen that in many four-year-old boys. >> Um so, yeah, he was he was fun like that. Um, but he he did have this this like goofy quirky side as well because of his hydrophilis. His head was >> much larger than than usual and it was all like vertical. And he learned very quickly but accidentally that if he jumped on the trampoline he could flip himself over and it was almost like his head was a little counterwe to help him spin faster. >> Oh my gosh. So his favorite thing for hours, he'd be out on the trampoline and then he would just be doing front flips in the air over and over and over and and like even if he fell, he'd get up and just kind of laugh at himself and and and get right back up on the trampoline. I mean, he loved it so much we actually dug a pit in it so that at least like okay, if you fall, >> the trampoline was now level with the ground. So instead of being up, >> it was an inground trampoline. >> Yeah, we had an ingground trampoline >> that you guys built yourself out there. Yeah, we we dug the pit and and it was not easy cuz it was like solid rock that we had to dig through, pickaxes and and stuff like that. >> But yeah, it was fun. Um the kids loved it. And yeah, I mean all of my boys were out there and loved it. And I mean there's there's times where my kids were out, all of them were out and one of them would be like reciting poems he had memorized while he's jumping on the trampoline or doing math problems. >> That sounds like >> home school. Homeschool prime homeschooling, right? I mean, it is it's like the coolest part of it. >> U but yeah, no, Silus loved that. And so he'd be out there for like hours just flipping over and over and then he'd get too dizzy and he'd just lay there for a little bit like, "Oh, what am I doing?" and then get up and just do it again. >> Uh so he had he had a lot of character um and and and and yeah, his his compassion and love for people and if somebody was hurt, he would always go over and and and just be like give them a hug and be like, "It's okay." Okay. Like whatever compassion he had been showed, he multiplied it and expanded it into into the world around him. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. >> Yeah. He's a Yeah. Just a fun kid. >> Yeah. >> Portion of today's revenue from these episodes will be going to Global Creation Foundation. They are a nonprofit partner here at Pivot or Die. Global Creation Foundation believes that music changes lives. So, they bring music education to kids all around the world who need it desperately. If that's something that you uh want to get behind or learn more about, then go to globalcreationfoundation.org and donate today. And so, can you kind of take us le let's go from from this moment a little bit? >> Yeah. Um you guys uh you know within this week of Silus starting to show some symptoms. >> Mhm. >> You're having to make this decision. >> Yeah. And um you talked in the last podcast about too how this it wasn't going to be the last time even that you would have to make a decision like that for somebody, right? >> Um and and so you and your wife Adrian >> Mhm. >> are um are both at the hospital at this point? >> Yep. >> And was was the rest of the family there with you guys, too? >> No, they were uh I mean they're too young. They were we we left them with some friends uh that lived across the street >> uh back in Nairobi. >> How old are the how old are the boys at this point? >> Well, Silus was five, so our next oldest was six >> and then eight and nine. >> So, they're all young >> uh when when this happened. And so, um yeah, we, you know, had to break it to them when when we saw them again. >> Wow. and wasn't that was definitely not a fun conversation. >> Yeah. >> Um and then you're going through the whole process of >> calling family back here in the States uh and letting them know and our friends >> um who had been praying for him and were constantly asked, "Hey, what's what's the update? What's the update?" M >> and you know having to having to tell your your other kids at that age that their brother is gone. >> M >> um I don't know if it was harder or the same as making the decision >> Yeah. >> for ourselves. Um because they came out to where we were at the hospital cuz again it's like a 2-hour drive. They came out to us thinking that they were going to see him >> because we weren't going to just tell him over the phone or Zoom or something. It was like we got to be here face to face, but we had to take care of some, >> you know, the business side of death. Um >> and so we had to stay there by the hospital. So our friend drove him out and we told him and it was >> Yeah. devastating as you would expect. >> So cuz you guys are I'm just I'm trying to to get this picture as well too. You guys are um you've been missionaries seven years >> in Kenya at this point. Um, did you have people that were there in person for you to rally around you even like with with where you were at at the hospital? It's like I think about in that moment you're in that state like are there people that you have right there or was it this this time where it was really you and Adrian for those day or so? >> Say that that that first day it was us. It was us. Um, we were staying at a friend's house that lived literally across the street from the hospital, but he was on furlow. I mean, he was back in the States visiting the churches that supported him. >> So, nobody was there. >> Wow. >> The next day when um when our friend brought um the kids out, she just, you know, kind of came in and made sure we had some food. She went to the store and got some food, but she wanted us to have the time with the kids and she needed to get back to her family. So, we were there for another day or so. Um, but when we got back to Nairobi, um, that's when we saw a different side of how to deal with death than what we typically see in the United States. >> Um, I feel like, >> please explain. >> Yeah, in the United States, we have a, first of all, we have a very sanitized view of death. M >> um death is something that we acknowledge it happens but we don't use we don't like to use the word they died right >> they passed away they're not coming back they have moved on um in a better place we use these phrases all the time >> I've been using them in this podcast >> I know and that's that's but that's our culture >> that's our culture um but in Kenya death is more a matter of fact. It's in your face. It happens so much more >> that and unfortunately so much more tragic >> death happens just the the safety on the roads, violence that could happen, >> um health issues, just there's a lot more like unexpected and tragedy. >> But that makes it so that it's almost more just a normal part of life. You know, I think of even like we love in the United States to sanitize everything. >> If I want a steak, I'm going to go to the store and I'm going to buy a piece of meat that's already been butchered and wrapped in a nice cellophane and, you know, styrofoam package. Um, the only thing that I know that, oh, that ties it to an animal is it's in the butcher case. But you don't see any of that happening. you want a piece of steak in Kenya, you go to the butcher who's got the whole half of the cow hanging up there >> and and so it's like it's much more real and right in your face. Death is the same way. >> And so it changes how you if it's a normal part of life, people know what to do in those situations so much more. >> So we come home and we are thinking like the typical American thing. We just we just need some time. Yeah, >> we didn't get that. >> And at first it really kind of angered me that everybody was like, "Hey, we want to come and see you. We want to come and see you." My entire church showed up at my house >> cuz at this point you're you're the senior pastor over over at church. >> At this point, I had handed the church over. >> Okay. Yeah. already. But that entire church >> showed up. >> One time or or one of >> we didn't we we weren't even actually attending the church at that time. We were at another church. >> Wow. >> So the church we were attending, they showed up and then the church we had planted and handed over showed up. >> Same time. >> Same time. And then all of our missionary friends. >> How long after? >> Two days. Our first day back in Nairobi. >> Oh my gosh, dude. And we had 60 people at our place. >> Wow. >> Our next door neighbor who was our landlord's um they were so kind and generous and knowing that we were coming home and I think they had been in Kenya for like 20 years. They they knew what was happening. >> They had baked like five or six cakes and all this stuff. And so when people started showing up, they were like, "Come on over to our place." Cuz they had a bigger yard and and we just kind of sat outside and they made coffee and tea and >> everyone who came over. This is a church in Kenya, right? We're the missionaries where according to US standard, we're making like nothing cuz we're supported missionaries. But by Kenyan standards, we're we're wealthy, >> you know, by their standard. >> But they all brought things. They brought food. They brought bags of rice. They brought loaves of bread and butter and eggs and milk. And >> it was it was it was a very interesting thing as as we're out talking and you know in our neighbor's yard, a group of the the mamas from the church went into our house and cleaned top to bottom. They're like, "This is what I can do to help." And they cleaned the whole house. They swept. They mopped. They did the laundry that needed to be done. They they made the beds. They did everything. They stocked our fridge with all the food that had been brought in and and you know, they made a bunch of the sandwiches from the bread and stuff. It was like they knew that a lot of people were coming, so people brought things that you can make easily to give to guests. >> Yeah. >> It's just basically tea and, >> you know, bread and butter. It's little bread and butter sandwiches. I'm sure you've seen them in Uganda and other places too. >> But that's what they did. And it was one of the most interesting things that I found is when you tell a story of like from my own side when I see you know tell a story about somebody passing away >> it's easy to just start you start crying you start balling >> but I told the story as everyone was asking more and more and retold it enough that I could get to the point where just a few days and >> it still hurt, but it wasn't like to the point where I couldn't tell it again. >> I could get through telling the story and be able to like learn to start processing. It's like all that grief that you go through is a is is a period of of processing the information as you're reliving it and rethinking about things and you think about something else. >> And there was something in a way almost magical about having everybody actually show up. >> Yeah. and to be there and to be a community. You know, when when the scripture talks about, you know, weep with those who weep, >> got a little tear going. >> You got to be there for somebody to weep with them. >> And the church was there for us and wept with us. M >> and you know it's like why do you wait till the funeral to show up and then say oh I remember the good stories about the >> we were talking about that with all of our friends right away. >> Yeah. >> And that's when we heard the story of you know how much for our neighbor it meant that Silas was running up to say hi to her every day. We had seen him do it, but >> she's like, "It was like one of the highlights of my day. Every day I knew if I saw him, I would be greeted." And >> and it was like hearing story after story like that >> so early in our process >> made a huge difference. And it's something that, >> you know, I just kind of wish that >> we had more of like that in our in our own culture here in the United States where we weren't afraid to experience pain with somebody who's experiencing the pain. >> We weren't afraid to just sit >> in the grief. >> Yeah. >> It's awkward for us. >> Yeah. >> It's scary. We don't know what to say. And I definitely heard things that you should never say >> Yeah. >> to somebody who's grieving the loss of a child. >> Yeah. >> Um especially in a country with some pretty whack theology. >> Um >> but yes, there was plenty of of people who straight up asked if they if I thought it was God judging me for some secret sin in my life. H. >> And to be asked that question a couple days afterwards Yeah. is uh >> two or three days after your son dies and I'm like, "No, not at all." Because that's not how God works. >> Yeah. >> And they're like, "Well," and it's like, "No." >> Really quick, >> it's like they want to go and look at, "Hey, Job." And I'm like, "Okay, read Job then because Job >> lost everything not because of sin." >> Yeah. >> In fact, it was the exact opposite. >> Yeah. I I want to um touch on this real quick and just take this opportunity. Um because to some of you that might be going through grief right now, that feeling of this being judgment from God might be a very real thing. >> Yeah. >> And so I I c can you speak to that just for a moment as somebody who has gone through something like this? I mean, was that an emotion that you wrestled with or or was it one of those things where I can you just explain kind of like >> I think for me because it was so like directly spoken to me. There was the gut reaction of I I can't believe you had the gull to say that. >> Absolutely not. And so in in some ways it made it feel like there's there's no way that's true because I immediately was going in almost into pastoral mode and correcting some of this theology. But I would say that I know that there's always those doubts that come and whether you made the right choice >> or whether you could have done more. >> Those kind of questions we still dealt with. But whether this was God judging me, that's not the loving God that we see through the Bible. >> And and it was not a matter of sin in like my life or my wife's life or even in Silas's life. >> Yeah. >> That caused this. It's a matter of sin on the grand epic scale in the earth. >> There's sin in this world. And unfortunately, one of the consequences of that sin that is in the world is we experience death. >> But it's not you sinned, therefore you must be punished kind of death. It's just we're all going to die. >> Yeah. And in my opinion and my understanding of the scripture is every death, no matter if you're five or 105, every death is a tragedy >> and every death just reveals that there's something wrong with the world. >> Yeah. It's not the way that it's supposed to be. >> It's not the way that it's supposed to be. >> There's a in um I I've just been talking this has been coming up more recently in the last couple days, too. So, I'm going to talk about it real quick. Um, this word dissonance, right? Um, it's like in music when there's two notes that clash, >> right? If you play a C and a C flat or a C and a C sharp, they those notes don't fit together. And so, they clash >> in the air for a tension over your ear. It's this it's this weird tension that builds. Um, and when there is death of any kind, like you're talking about, when there's when there's sickness and when there's sadness and when there's the craziness that goes on in the world, there is a deep dissonance within us. And when we have that feeling of wrongness, I agree with you at at at every death. It's one of those things. this isn't the way that it's supposed to be. And and and why would you say that that dissonance would be a a common shared human experience? >> Hey everyone, you may have noticed the change in our decorations here at the Pivot Die podcast studio. Um and that is because of Jessica Chapman Art. Go to jessica chapmanart.com if you would like to get these exact prints um or other originals there that Jessica has. Um Jessica's a huge supporter of the podcast and uh we absolutely love getting to hang her art in our room and we know that you would love to hang her art in your room as well. Go to jessicaart.com and get some art today. Well, the reason why it's a shared common human experience is the fact that we all have within ourselves a knowledge that there is supposed to be something more. There's supposed to be something better than the world in which we live. >> And there is that. And that's from God. That's God putting and speaking to us and revealing to us that >> this is not right. M >> uh because God doesn't want to leave us in this fallen sinful state, but he has something so much better for us. >> Uh the restoration of what the original plan for humanity was. The the the the land of paradise, >> you know, when when the book of Revelation says a new heaven and a new earth, it >> we focus so much on heaven that we forget the earth is thrown in there with it. we get to experience that per perfect state on this earth >> in the future. But that's that hope that we have that we get to have it. >> Um in Ecclesiastes, it talks about God has placed eternity in our hearts. We know that there's something more. We know that there's something deeper and that what we're going through now isn't God's perfect uh you or original, we'll say original plan for us. We get to experience his perfected plan of the cross, >> but we don't fully experience the fullness of it until we enter into eternity. M >> and and I think that everybody whether they are a Christian or believe in another religion or an atheist still has that in their heart that they there's something wrong >> that death is not a good thing. >> Yeah. Now >> we've I've read a lot of books on death >> uh and and like dying well kind of things and that's actually the title of one of the books that I had read >> is dying well >> is dying well and the idea is to not be afraid of death to to understand that it is part of our common experience but >> it's so much easier to not be afraid of that death if you have a faith in Jesus Christ if you have trust and a hope >> you know that that we're anchored in in in Christ, that according to God, we're already seated in the heavenly place. To God's point of view, we're already there in heaven. >> We just aren't experience that experiencing that because we're in this timeline of earth, >> but God sees it in a totally different way. >> I agree with you on all of that, which is which is amazing. And I I think that that's we have a common shared faith, right? But I I want to ask um with all that being said, okay, >> we both have an understanding of that, right? At that time when when Silas passes away, you Jonathan, you have this understanding of that. >> Was that though you knew it, was it tested in that season? Can you can you speak to that testing of the things that you know? >> Yeah. Uh yeah, for me it it was it was tested >> but at the same time the the faith and hope was secure. >> But it wasn't that doesn't make it easy to go through it. >> Like there wasn't a a time where I was like maybe God isn't real >> with with this for me. >> Yeah. Um I know for others who have gone through that it they they pass through a period where they question everything everything >> but still come out on the end on the other side. >> For me it wasn't quite like that but I did wrestle with some of the why questions. Not a I think it's easy for people like in this situation they're like >> I'm doing everything right. I mean I moved over here to serve you God would >> in the missionary situation. >> I'm in a missionary or I'm doing everything right and I'm going to church and I'm just I'm I'm giving and all this, you know, how could this happen? >> Yeah. Um, it wasn't that, but it was more of just why this little guy, >> why what's the purpose you have for us, God, in this? >> And so, there was a lot more questioning for me on that. >> Um, but it was tough, man. It was really hard. >> Yeah. So, I I mean, you're you're in this in this uh you know, you're in this place. You guys get back from being at the hospital, the whole family's there, the whole church shows up. >> Then the other church shows up. Yeah. And everybody's all at your house. It's a couple days afterwards. You're getting asked some of these questions where culturally as an American dude out there, you're like, "What is happening?" >> And also, you don't have this this grieving period where everybody just leaves you alone and like it's like, "Oh, well, it's just let's just let you sit in it." Yeah. >> Instead, you have 60 people coming over to your house a couple days afterwards, which is the culture over there. >> Right. Um, >> but then over the next over the next season of your life, you guys will then end up coming back home. >> Right. >> Right. Um because like you explained in in the last episode too, the the the reason why you guys were staying um at that time was to to try to see if if we could get Silas uh away over here to get him fully adopted and these different things. We had a lot of process that we had to still go through to get it finalized with the adoption and to get it recognized by both uh to be officially finished and recognized by the Kenyan government. >> Um we were legal guardians the whole time. There wasn't any like thing like that. But it was like >> we're not finalizing adoptions. You can be as guardian as long as you want but we're not finalizing adoptions. That was the rule in Kenya at the time. The rule in Kenya at the time. no more foreign adoptions finalized for this period of time. >> And so we couldn't even get a visa to bring him to the states for medical care. >> Yeah. >> If he wasn't finalized on the adoption >> and so yeah, that was tough. That was a real tough thing. Um it was about, you know, after this after this time and after the the the death, um my pastor at the time, my pastor from back here in the States says, "Hey, you guys need a break." >> Yeah. you guys need a break, so I want you to come home. >> Was that something that you just curious? Was that something in this moment that you were in agreeance with or were you kind of like, no? >> I think at first at first when it happened, it was like, well, we're with our community. Our family's back in the States. >> Yeah. But our community >> is is in Kenya at the point at that point because those are the people we were doing life with, right? Those are the people we saw every day, every week. >> Um, and to be honest, part of me was like, yeah, we need to go home because our family back home needs to see us and they need to grieve and they need to see us as well. >> I feel like we can grieve here, but at the same time, that was me. Yeah. >> Um, my wife needed to go back home. >> I think my boys needed to go back home and have a break. >> Um, at least have some separation from where all this took place. >> Yeah. >> And so we said, "Okay, we'll go home." Um, my pastor's like, "But before you go home, I want I want to give you guys like a break break before you have to come back home and deal with it at church and family and all that." And so, uh, the church sent us to, uh, to Israel, to a guest house in Israel for a week and a half to just rest. >> Yeah. >> Not have to be doing ministry in Kenya, not have to face all the questions and everything back home. >> And I think for most of us in our immediate family, um, that there was healing that was able to take place there. my youngest son that was still there with us, he had the hardest time, I think, of all of us because it was his little buddy, right? >> Um, and it didn't matter where we were, there was going to be some major grief and and and tears and things that was going to take a while to overcome. >> Yeah. Um, but being able to go and actually just rest >> at a little guest house on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. And we did some, you know, some sightseeing, but it wasn't like a big tour group and busy, busy, busy. There were a few days where we did nothing besides stay at the guest house, play games with the kids, and eat delicious food that was prepared for us. Um, but getting a chance to be there, it was very peaceful and restful. >> And then we came home and it was craziness begins. We came home, we were originally coming home for 2 months and then we were going to head back. >> Once we got back to the States, that's when it was really hard for me. >> Really? >> Yes. That's when it got really hard. And I think separating myself from the ministry >> and everything I needed to get done over there and the things I needed to teach and wanting to model, you know, processing grief in a biblical manner and everything. >> Um, now I'm it's me. >> Yeah, >> it's me and we're staying at a friend's house and like what do I do now? I'm sitting in it. >> That was harder. And what was hard for me was the idea of I don't want to go back. >> I don't want to go back now. >> I need to I need to take some time and and really process again. Not questioning my faith at all. >> Mhm. >> But questioning the why and how this went down. Like I needed to take some time to go through like the was there something we could have done. >> Yeah. >> I needed to deal with that. I needed to deal with the issues that I had with >> the medical care system and the anger and those things, not towards God, but towards really towards the other people that were involved in everything that went on during that week of medical care. >> And so we decided to stay for another for a full year instead of just two months. >> So we extended it. We stayed. And >> And I mean, what's it what's it like a little bit? You guys come back, you get off that plane to see to see the rest of your family and and the community that's been supporting you and the church that had sent you out and and of course these different things. But like you said, you guys had been in Kenya for seven years at that point. Um, when was the last time before you guys arrived back at home that you had been to the States? >> Three years. >> Three years. >> Yeah. So, from that core group, um, there were very few people like maybe three or four people from like the group now that we're going back to in the States, >> there's maybe like three or four people who had actually we had seen because they had come to Kenya. M >> um so now we're dealing with the loss of our son, >> but also the loss of the ministry we were doing, the loss of our friend groups, the loss of our community, our churches, even though we're going back to our home church. >> In many ways, it was different because we had been gone for 7 years. >> Um it felt at home, but it didn't. >> Yeah. It had become a a it's like going back home after you've moved out and you've been gone and you've got your own place and then you go back home to visit. It feels like home but at the same time you feel like you can't wait to get back to where your new home is. M >> but also I didn't want like I missed a bunch of that stuff but I didn't want to go back because I wasn't quite ready to deal with >> anger the anger and and >> um uh resentments in some ways that I had towards >> the way things went down >> with it all. So that was a that was a tough one. That was where I really I that's where I face more difficulties personally. Not questioning my faith, but >> how do I deal with the anger that I have? >> How do I deal with the resentments that I have towards say the surgeon that did the first surgery and then booked it right after and like never did any follow-up care? >> Like there's those kind of issues that I have had had major resentment towards. >> Yeah. What um through this whole season of of you guys coming back here, you starting to process through um process through all these things, the decision to stay for longer and processing through the anger, processing through this grief, being there with your family through this whole thing as well too. I mean, were there certain things I I love asking this question in this in this podcast as well, too. Were there certain things that you can think back to certain books or certain podcasts or certain um conversations or like songs or poems or something? Was there was there something that helped as you were going through this and and over time were there were there things that you can look back on and kind of go yeah that was a pivotal moment of healing towards this thing or of understanding towards this thing? >> Yes. Uh, a couple of things in particular. Um, we we had a great church, but most of them hadn't been through this process. >> Um, we did have another missionary couple that actually lost their son. While they were on the field, their son who was an adult, just a little different, but still >> um, back in the States passed away. And so even though they weren't here in in America with us, >> we connected with them quite a few times. >> And talking to people who had been through what we had been through >> and came out the other side victorious was a huge thing. >> Yeah. >> Um, another big thing that really helped was straight up therapy. >> Yeah. Um, and not just like biblical counseling, which I did. I, you know, would talk to my pastors and and other really strong Christians, >> but like actual, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy and that kind of like like let's sit down and discuss these things and what goes to the root heart issues. Why why are you so angry at this situation? Why are you not just let's talk about what the Bible says about anger, but let's get to >> Yeah. >> Is there something more that's leading you to be so angry at this situation? Is there something else in your life that >> that may have led to you >> you having more anger than say an average person would >> or more resentment or things like that? So, >> cuz I I think that it is it is so something where when you're going through a season of grief or you're going through this season of heaviness and sometimes I think it's it's people mean well, but there are certain times that people will come up and just kind of quote the same scripture at you. I don't know how many times I just heard the phrase, especially once we came back to the States, well, at least he's not suffering anymore. at least he's in a better place. >> And >> to me, I'm like, okay, he might be in a better place, but he's not with me and I'm not with him. >> Yeah. >> So, that doesn't really bring me comfort. >> But you have to almost pretend that it does. >> Yeah. >> Because you know the heart of the person who's saying it, they mean well, >> so you don't want to explode on them. >> Yeah. >> Even though you might want to. One of the one of the things that um through everything that that we've kind of had to deal with with our son and with all these different things and whatever um you know people have this thing and I've talked about this on the podcast before but it's just it's just true where they go well God will never give you more than what you can handle. >> Yes he will. >> And that's just they they quote it like it's a scripture. But I just want to make something clear, okay? That is nowhere in scripture. >> Not at all. >> It says >> that God will never tempt you. >> Correct. >> Beyond what you can handle, but will always provide a way of escape. >> Yes. >> But it never once says, "Hey, you know what? I'm not going to like like you have your capacity bar and don't worry, I won't like give you more than what you can handle." It's this just wild. And people mean well when they say it, >> but but it's not true. >> It's not true. >> And and I'm I'm a strong believer in there are many times where God will give you more than you can handle. >> Yep. >> Why? >> Because it's at that point where you have to turn to him and say, "I can't do this alone." And rely on him. >> Or turn to other people in your community and say, "I can't do this alone. will you help me? >> Yeah, >> it it it's such a big thing that we need to come alongside people who are hurting >> because they're often times going through more than they can handle and need support. >> And so understanding that that's what those people were doing when 60 people showed up at my house 2 days after my son passed away. It wasn't to be a burden. It was to >> help lift me up. Yeah. >> And to grieve with me and to in some way take some of the grief upon themselves. >> Like I said, >> I don't know many people that can tell the story of what happened with a major tragedy like that after 2 days and not fall into tears every single time. >> Yeah. >> But sharing it with them and them crying with me got me to the point where >> I was able to >> because I felt that my grief had been lightened >> by sharing it. We need >> sharing it 60 times on the third day is the >> It's a lot. >> It's a lot. >> It's a lot. But I I would I would encourage, you know, anybody who's listening to to do the same >> to find a way to help. And giving them their space is if everybody gives them their space then they're alone in their grief. >> Yep. And that's often >> and that's what happened so often here in many ways it would be better to just go and sit down in the living room and do what Job's friends did right >> which was sit and not say anything for a full week. They just stayed with him in his grief before they opened their mouths and ruined the whole thing. >> You know, if if >> if you haven't read the story of Job, >> read Job. And his friends did the right thing for the first seven days and then the rest of the book is them messing it all up. >> Um, >> and then God coming down and basically >> mainly with mainly that question, which is well, come on. There's got to be something. >> There's got to be something going on. God wouldn't have done this if you were a righteous person. God wouldn't s make you suffer. And I'm like, yes, he does. >> In fact, some of his strongest and most righteous people, if you would say, are those that have suffered the most. >> And it's like God saying, "Okay, I'm going to you. You want to grow. It's going to cause pain, >> but you're going to grow." Mhm. >> And it's not like he even the other way of being like, well, he took him so that you could be stronger. It's like, no, but he can take me and make me stronger through >> this terrible time, >> this tragedy. >> But yeah, I I just want to encourage people, find ways to help, be there for them. >> If you don't know what to say, let's let's quote an old classic country song. You say it best when you say nothing at all. >> Mhm. You know, sometimes that's the thing. Just be there with them. >> Come in and be like, "Hey, I'm here. I know you probably are, you know, quite busy, so I just came over to see if uh you need some help cleaning the house." And then do it. >> And a lot of times people, you know, say, "Oh, no, it's okay." And it's like, "I don't want to be a burden on you." And it's like, "No, I'm here to not to to take the burden off of you. I'm here for that. I want to take your burdens." >> Yeah. and share them so that they're not your burdens anymore, but it's our burden together. >> It's really great advice and firsthand too. Um, I think that that was just amazing because you just spoke on two sides. you got to speak to the person who is experiencing grief. Um and to give your perspective from being that person and um maybe if you're listening to this too, you might be in that place but not not able to talk about it in the same way that you're talking about it right now. And then you also gave some some pointers to those who might comfort others who have been in who who are grieving in a situation like this. And um yeah, just being there. I have a a friend of mine, really good friend, whose uh whose dad just just died. And um uh the day that it happened, me and another friend, we just drove over to his house. >> Mhm. >> And showed up. And it was actually my dad, my dad who called me and said, "Hey, son, you need to go over to that guy's house because he's not going to remember anything that anybody says right now." >> Mhm. >> That's not the point. It's not the thing that matters. But he will remember who was there. >> Yep. >> And who was just there. >> Yep. I don't remember any scripture that was shared with me during that time. >> Mhm. The two things I remember is how loved we felt from our community that came around us and remembering who came and cleaned and who came and brought food out of out of their their need >> and were giving to us when it's like we know what it's like there. that I remember. And unfortunately, I remember the stupid things people said. >> And that's why it's sometimes better to just not say anything and just be there. But I do remember the people who were there. >> When people are going through grief, often they're not looking for answers. They're looking for comfort. >> They're not looking for explanations right away. Down the road, they're probably thinking through all these things. Even if they're like, "Why why did this happen?" They're not asking you to give a full theological explanation on the on the, you know, a dissertation on on death and sin and original sin and all that. No, they're not looking No, we're not looking for that when we're grieving. >> We're looking for somebody to say, "I don't know." >> Mhm. >> But I'm here for you right now. >> Mhm. That's what we need when we're facing that grief. That's what we need in our darkest time is to know we're not alone >> at this point. How how many how many years has it been? >> Uh it was actually September will be 10 years. M 10 years of processing >> and of healing. um of getting through those doubts and angers and what are your thoughts about the why? Now, >> you know, I still don't have an answer for why, and I'm okay with that. >> I'm okay with not knowing why our son died after being in our home for only two years. I don't know why, you know, such a little boy went through all of the pain that he went through beyond the the the sin is in the world answer. >> Mhm. >> But I've come to the understanding that it's okay not to know the why. M >> what I can look at and say is for two years we were blessed by having him in our life. >> And I hope that for him it was two years of of blessing that we were in his life. >> And that's what I have to focus on. How did we experience Christ and model Christ in the time that we had? >> Not just to each other, but to other people around us. >> You know, especially when it comes to something like adoption. Adoption is such a beautiful picture of God's love for us. >> And it's not easy. As anyone who has adopted or fostered or been anywhere in that process can tell you, it is not an easy adjustment. But can we still show the love of God there? >> Can we experience the love of God and can we grow from it? So 10 years in, no, I I don't I don't have an answer for why, but I've learned to sit with that unknown a lot easier. >> It's learned I've learned over the years to to know that there are things that we're never going to fully understand. >> There are things that we're going to experience that that just don't make sense. And that's okay because I don't understand everything about history yet I teach it and I can live it and experience it and see patterns and things and it's the same way. >> Can I use this experience to help somebody else? >> Yes. >> I can sit and and and know at least what not to say. >> Yeah. >> When somebody's grieving. >> Yeah. I can help somebody walk through that grief. Not because I am an expert in grief counseling and therapy, >> but because of the experience, >> you know, it made it easier as well because we had to make this decision when we've had to make other decisions like that before. >> Yeah. um or after this happened, it was it was easier to make those decisions. >> Yeah. >> Wasn't easy, but it was easier. >> And to me, I think being able to take what we've been through and use it for good, uh a pastor that that I used to read a lot and listen to a lot of sermons would always say that everything you've been through in your life up till now is preparing you for what God has next. So everything that God had led me through was preparing me for that moment. >> But now that moment is part of the treasury of what God has put me through >> to prepare me for what's next. >> And >> could you say that one more time? the the what the >> everything that you go through in life and everything you've been through in life is preparing you for what God has next for you. >> So you can look through that in a lot of ways in my life. You know, I was bullied when I was younger. Now I'm in a school and teaching. I know what it's like to be the the one receiving the bullying >> and being picked on. >> I can comfort those who have been there. >> Does that mean that it was all great and wonderful and I'm so glad that I got bullied as a kid? No, not at all. >> Yeah. >> But can I use what God has taken me through to help somebody and prepare me for the next stage in my life? >> Yes. >> Yeah. and the grief that I went through has I've seen God uses that and has used it to help others when they're going through difficulties like that. >> Never been in a situation that's exactly the same. I probably never will, but >> but there's lessons that we can learn. And and I think that's one of the big things that keeps me going >> when faced with some really big obstacles in my life >> is that God has prepared me and put me through everything I've been through so I can be a blessing to the next person. M >> again, that's not the reason he took Silas. >> M >> but he's going to use the fact that Silas is has died to help other people. Well, >> thank you for that answer. >> Yeah. >> The last um thing is as as we kind of >> Yeah. wrap this up a little bit too. Um, could you kind of just even for a moment speak into that camera, talking to that person who's right there in the season that you guys were in. >> Yeah. I mean, we we know at this point there's no words of comfort kind of thing, but right, can you talk to them? I want to tell you guys, if you're right in the middle of this, if you're facing the hardest thing you've ever faced before in your life and grieving the biggest loss you've ever faced, um, it could be a child, it could be a spouse, it could be a a a job, a marriage, it could be so many different things that no matter how dark It feels God is still there for you and there is light that at the end of this tunnel you will be able to see your way through this. But rely on people who want to be there for you to help. Talk to people. Get the help that you need. Find a counselor that is a a a grief uh and traumainformed counselor or therapist, somebody who's been there. Talk to your pastor. Don't be afraid to be fully honest with how you're feeling as well. Don't try and hide it. It will do you no service whatsoever if people ask you, "How are you doing?" and your response is, "I'm I'm good. I'm good." while inwardly you're dying and you just feel like you've shriveled up inside. Be honest. You will find the people who will help you through it. Some people are going to be like, I don't know what to do with that. I don't know how to handle that. >> But there's going to be people who will be able to walk alongside you and accept the help from those who offer it. Accept help. Don't do it alone. We are never meant to be alone. We're never meant to go it alone. When we go through difficulties, we need to go through them with the people around us that love us and care for us and are wanting to be there to support us during those times. So, take the help you can get. We're here for you. Our comment section is um a place where you can be real as well. And if you are going through something like this and need people around you, need some support um we're we're here for you. >> And I can provide some some good resources and books and some websites as well to put in the comment section right away. >> Yeah. >> So that if if you're going through this, check out the resources that are available. Yeah, let's do it. Jonathan, thank you so much for being on the podcast. >> Thanks for having me on. >> I'm sure you'll be back at some point. >> Oh, yeah. There's a lot more pivots to discuss. >> But you were you were vulnerable and um honest and raw today. And I think that that is something that um in this situation uh there needs to be more of especially here in the states like we talked about. >> Absolutely. >> And so thank you for sharing your thoughts. Thank you for being on and uh we'll see you next time on the Pivot to Die podcast. Thanks Jonathan. Thanks.