Pivot Or Die

I mean, I just remember you at this time, bro, just like with that mentality of like, I'm going to do it. I don't care how long it takes me. I don't care how hard it is. I will die in this pit. I'm going to do it. >> And I broke. Let God be the balancer of the scales. It's not your job. It's God's job. He took a life that was supposed to end and he look made something beautiful out of it. I thought, I can do this by my own mind. I'm going to take care of my family. I'm going to do this. >> And I failed. I I can't look back and say, you know what, I did this. Yeah. >> Cuz I'm not anything. >> I'm not anything special, >> you know. >> So, >> you are David Sparks. >> I'm David Sparks. They know that. Yeah. >> All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Pivot or Die podcast. I'm your host, Seth Quaser, and today I'm joined by one of my closest friends in high school, uh, David Sparks. David, thank you for being on the show. >> Absolutely. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, David is a um a electrician now. You moved out to to Georgia from >> Yeah. >> uh from California. Um, you're a husband. You're a father. Um, you got another one on the way now, too. Y >> um, a lot of life has happened since high school, man. Yeah, just a lot of things have happened >> and I'm just really excited to um get to to dive into your story with you because I know that you um you have quite a a journey that that you've been through um and getting to kind of talk about that and and share it even I mean you know like we just talked about a second ago before the podcast like I think that um you in high And even now too, you got like a goofy side to you that I just I love it, man. It's so good. But I think that um that's a side that uh a lot of people got to see, but even as we're going to talk about in just a minute, like there was there's a lot more that >> Yeah. Even in laughter, the heart can sorrow. >> Yeah. >> You can be on the outside putting up um what you want the world to see and what you want what you want the world to think of you, but inside you're broken. You've got family things going on. You've got um internal struggles going on and people don't always see that. >> Yeah. So, I mean, let's let's let's talk about it. Let's go back to kind of your your childhood and kind of give a an overview a little bit. Like, you're you're born into the world and what is what does life look like? >> Yeah. I think um I think to kind of kick it off, I think my story should have ended um when I was about 13, 14, probably about 14, 15. And I think my story is a story of God stepping in and uh and using a life that should have been thrown away, >> you know. Um I believe there's nothing special about me. Um and and God chose to to pull me out of my sin and and to um to make something of my life. You know, >> I have a beautiful little family that I don't deserve and >> um we have everything we need and I'm really thankful for that. >> Um >> yeah, just kind of get into my life and where I came from. Um, so backstory, uh, my dad was a, um, uh, Navy ROC, um, officer on a nuclear submarine. And uh he my mom was um from a Mormon family that my grandma they they were like seventh generation Mormons. They had been in Mormonism. They came across on not my my grandma but like my ancestors came across on the wooden wagons to Utah. >> Yeah. >> And my grandpa was like a um priest in the in the temple. Like they were they were the Mormon family >> really. And um my grandma broke off and found Christ. And she >> separately from your grandpa. >> Separately. >> Really? >> Yeah. And um the church told told the my grandpa to divorce her >> and it was a it was a whole thing. That's that's a whole different podcast. You can get her on here. >> She's an amazing woman. >> Let's do it. >> Um honestly, yeah, I'll talk to her. Um, so my mom ended up following her and my grandpa ended up getting saved in the whole, you know, that that's a huge redemption story, but my mom was one of the kids that went with her into Christianity and and ended up finding Christ. And so I think that's kind of how Christ got into my family. >> Yeah. So you were kind of born into a a Christian household. >> Yeah. My my dad was raised um I don't know if they were Christian, but they they had like a respect for God, >> you know. >> Um and and they they I believe they believe the Bible and they I I believe they went to church. They had kind of >> Judeo-Christian morals, you know, >> and um so they met in Hawaii and got married. There's, you know, there's a whole bunch I'm skipping over, but they had me and I was born um in California, uh, Glen Glendor, and, um, my dad got out of the got out of the Navy and started working in manufacturing, and he did very well. He was very successful. >> Um, all of the the the Naylor family is a very warm, soft, and fuzzy kind of family. And my dad's >> the Naylor family is is >> Yeah. And my dad's family is very have always been very industrious. Just a very industrious people. >> Yeah. >> Um he was telling me some of the history of like where we came from. I was talking to my uncle. My uncle's >> um most of you know the Sparks family they end up either athletes like top athletes or um business people or just >> very kind of industrious people. Yeah. >> And um so my dad got into manufacturing and did very well. Um and he ended up we ended up moving a lot of my childhood >> because he was getting promoted. >> Okay. >> Um and so >> and they would in a big company they would they would move the whole family when he got >> they would move the whole family. So he would go into a plant and uh he would you know failing plant he'd turn it around and it'd be the top performing plant and then someone else would hire him. He'd go there. So, um, that's what we did. We And so, we had a really kind of we were kind of the happy homeschool um, family. >> Yeah. >> And we were not like filthy rich, but we were wealthy. You know, my dad had Porsches and sports cars and we had, you know, the big house and um, lived in Huntington Beach and um, he was respected. We were respected. you know, we were a respectable family. My mom was just a >> very bubbly person, you know, very nice, very sweet, >> and we just had a uh we had as kids, we just had so many adventures. >> Yeah. >> Um and we just got to explore and see so many places and it was really cool. And um uh that was kind of background. I was raised in church. Um, but I don't think I knew Christ and I didn't understand the gospel. >> M >> um I think for those of us raised in church, we can kind of um >> know Christ to the fullest extent that we can know him >> in our youth, right? But it's kind of until we're faced with uh >> with reality and and we're faced with our own sin that then we have to make that >> where the rubber meets the road. Yeah. The gospel can be a theor, you know, it can all work in theory. Yeah. >> Um but uh it's it's like knowing all the plays and you know, you get out on the field, you have to actually do it. You know, I work in electrical now and >> I've had people come work for me that >> came out of school, you know, and they know all the theory, but they can't turn a wrench, you know? It's like what good is? So, kind of like you can know all the theory, but when you start to get down on the job site and and get into the nitty-gritty, you know, you start connecting the dots. It doesn't make sense until you're like, "Oh, that's what a neutral is." >> Yeah. >> You know, >> and so you you were raised with uh these Judeo-Christian Yeah. >> morals, values, going to church, all these kind of things, learning the right things. >> Um your family, happy homeschool family. >> Yeah. atomic family where dad worked, you know, mom stayed home and >> um we were we were pretty happy. You know, my dad coached >> soccer and um mom, you know, was just mom, she was great. My mom was always very um like uh she would always come pray with us and >> um if it wasn't for my mom, I don't know if I would have really met Christ. Um because she was when things things got really hard. Um my dad unexpectedly lost his job just through some like freak accidents at work that happened >> and somebody needed to be blamed for it and he was a guy and he lost his job >> and we moved to I mean I think that was the first time in my life that anything hard ever happened. >> How old were you around that time? >> I was like 11 12. >> Okay. And nobody had even died in my life. Like no deaths, no >> real struggle. >> Yeah. >> Just growing up being a kid. >> And um we moved to New Hampshire and uh which looking back on it now, I think was a mistake to move away from family and friends and everything that holds you grounded. and we moved there and we were just uh my dad ended up getting limes disease and got a tick. So, >> um limes disease comes from from a tick. It it it can it um lives in their gut >> and it's a um I' I've heard all kinds of things like it's shaped like a drill and it drills into your cells. It's it's really bad. >> Um and um it it can destroy your life. It really can. And that's what I watched. And there's a verse in Ecclesiastes talking about um like one of the the things that he's observed in the world. One of the sad things is a great and powerful man that's brought down by some calamity, >> you know. And that's kind of what happened to my family. It was like we were happy, everything was good, and then it was just like um kind of crumbled. started to crumble, >> you know, and um >> and and this I mean limes disease is something that's like >> Yeah. >> You get you get a tick bite and then >> Yeah. >> contract this disease. >> Yeah. It wiped out his sleep and he uh it was hard watching >> just a this this competent, respected man um unable and I think it was hard for him to wrestle with that. just unable to um just function, you know, >> and it was it was hard on the family and um uh he he had a lot of struggles and and um I don't want to I don't want to out him on everything that's happened, you know. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I love my dad and I respect him and and he was he I think he did the best he could and but he wasn't perfect. >> Yeah. you know, um and none of our none of our parents are. Um I just we were just with this amazing family and um it was like I I don't think they could do anything ever wrong, you know, that they're just perfect from the outside looking like >> Yeah. >> And it's like, wow, they had struggles, too. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> everybody has struggles, but to what degree? Our parents fail us, but to what degree? >> Yeah. you know. Um, and so that being said, long story short, my world got shaken. Um, and then I was in junior high and kind of coming that age where you're trying to find yourself in the world a little bit. >> Yeah. And I was I was pretty lost. And um and my dad was was uh he was down, you know, he was he was having a hard time. >> And our relationship got really really hard, really rough. >> Um I hated my dad. >> I hated him. Um and um >> cuz I mean like when you're talking about your dad before um before losing his job before New Hampshire. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Um talking about having, you know, you guys were well off. >> Yeah. >> Doing these things kind of successful, all these kind of things. he gets limes disease and I mean what what are some of those words that you would kind of use to describe some things that ended up happening after that limes disease that kind of changed from um I mean to to to then talk about your guys's relationship getting rocky and all that kind of stuff. I think because he was very successful, um there was a lot of pressure on me to be an engineer, to be successful, to be >> just very um I mean he was a Navy ROC guy. like >> those guys in the nuclear submarine program, like those guys like >> graduated from um Northwestern with a um degree in mechanical engineering. Really, really smart guy and went on to run >> and um just there was a lot of pressure for me to live up to, >> you know, and uh I was never I feel like I struggled to meet the expectations. >> Yeah. you know, I was not um I was not the fastest. I was not the smartest. I was overweight. I was a little slow. I was a little um and I didn't do well in um junior high. I just didn't my health was really bad >> and um I was kind of sickly and uh that kind of is against the kind of Viking mentality, you know, like >> yeah, >> I kind of think of like uh the the the movie what is it the How to Train Your Dragon, you know, like there's this like Viking father and then there's this kind of sickly little kid, Pipsqueak kid. I kind of like relate to that a little bit, you know, because it was like I had a lot to live up to and >> I struggled to live up to that >> and um that was really hard and our relationship got really rocky >> and um I took I took a lot of I think you want your firstborn to be to carry the name >> and um it didn't look like I was going to be carrying the name well, >> you know, I wasn't going to amount to much. >> Yeah. And that was probably concerning for him. Yeah. You know, I wasn't doing well in school. >> And um and I was I I started getting into um pornography. So my spiritual I think that affects everything. >> Really does. >> Pornography. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And just sexual morality. It it eats you from the inside. >> Absolutely. you know, and uh I had that going on and I was just um >> there I mean for me personally it's it's to the point where it's you know um I'm in uh I'm in an SA program now, Sexaholics Anonymous. >> Yeah. >> Um and the more time I'm I'm approaching 300 days of um sobriety from pornography and masturbation, which is >> amazing. Yeah. Um, and uh, the more time that I have spent away from pornography, it's literally like memories from my childhood are like becoming uncovered. >> Yeah. >> That's like, oh my gosh, there was so much weight and shame that um, I was carrying >> and using pornography as a coping mechanism. >> Yeah. um for for all of these deep um wounds and insecurities that I had. >> Yeah. >> Um >> you turn to it. You turn to something. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> When life gets hard, when you experience shame, when you experience hardship, what do you turn to? >> Yeah. >> What where do you fill yourself? >> Yeah. >> You know, what do you fill yourself with? >> Yeah. >> And that's a polluted that's a polluted spring. >> Yeah. you're you're filling your your heart and your mind with with uh with trash. If you're drinking gasoline every day, you're not going to be healthy. >> Yeah. >> You know, I worked at at a youth camp for a second. I'll get into that, but one of the directors used to talk about these kids that would come to camp and it's like they've been drinking gasoline their whole life >> and they get a taste of fresh water >> and it it's it's amazing. >> And um that's what I think it is. any any sin, but pornography and that specifically is >> every it talks about in the Bible um every sin that a man commits like I guess is kind of outside like it hurts other people >> and not that sexual immorality doesn't but you're it talks about it you're sinning against yourself >> you're destroying >> yourself >> and then when you have a family you're destroying your family you know and it's >> it's um it's crazy. So that was That was something I think that was probably degrading. Well, I messed the mic. >> No, you're good. >> Probably degrading every My life was degrading from the inside out and it was crumbling. I didn't have a foundation. >> Yeah. >> You know, the foundation that I I was >> that I had my whole life that that solid, you know, wealth kind of >> was was crumbling started. That was just when it started to crumble. You know, we still had >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we were living in New Hampshire and that was when we still had um money in the bank and we still had the you know 4,000 5,000 foot house and you know people would come the Porsches and stuff and people come and they bow down and oh you're so >> so great you know >> um wealth does that you know >> um >> and uh that was that was when it started to fracture you know and my mom my mom was an anchor for the family. >> She would just pray and she supported my dad and she she got him better from Lion's disease. >> She devoted her life >> to um getting him better. >> And um >> that was that was something that impacted me, you know, just the way that she loved >> and she loved us. And when times got hard, that got worse, a lot worse, she was able to be a foundation because she had a foundation. >> Yeah. >> You know, and um Yeah. >> And so I mean from there, talk about things getting worse. I mean, what >> Yeah. So we ended up >> kind of progressed. >> We ended up losing um not losing the house, we ended up selling it and he got another job in Kentucky. He was so he started to go on the up and up, you know, he started to heal, started to get better >> um and he was kind of on the up and up and so we moved to um Kentucky and cuz he got another job but the stress and everything he his his health declined again. >> Yeah. >> And it was kind of back to where we were and that was that was a pretty dark time >> because we were just completely secluded, >> you know. I remember um and >> being away from family. >> Oh yeah. I remember just cuz my aunt aunt uh would always check on us. She was like a >> second third grandma to us. >> Yeah. >> And I remember just and she she was another one um that she was just awesome. Love love love the Lord and was always >> cared about me specifically. I feel like and um I remember she she got on the phone one day and I was screaming at my brothers like I I think like I wanted to kill them. I was just like >> so angry >> and just being like ashamed that she heard that, >> you know. >> Um and um and I was doing school online which didn't help with the problem, >> you know. Um and I had no friends. I was not I was just alone, >> you know, >> and uh it was just dark. >> Yeah. >> And family family was crumbling, starting starting to crumble and uh deteriorate and um yeah, I just I didn't have have much >> and I I prayed I tr I truly tried. I remember that. That's an important thing because I tried. >> Yeah. >> I tried to be good. I tried to stop. I tried to love. I tried all the things, you know, and I couldn't. H >> I think that's important to to note because even the even the prayer of the wicked is an abomination. It's about identity. >> I didn't understand uh my that God is the one that does the work. >> He pulled me up. >> You know that I'm I'm helpless. >> Yeah. >> He's the he's the hero of the story. >> Yeah. you know. Um, so I think that's a key key thing to understand. >> Yeah. And I mean, so what what kind of changed? I mean, at the beginning of this too, you said my story should have ended right around this time. >> Yeah. A little little ways down the road. So, we ended up moving in with my grandparents, the the amazing grandparents that came out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, which were always a light retired. They in uh Cherry Valley. >> Okay. And >> they they My grandpa passed away. He's a really good man. I was there for that. It was amazing. >> Wow. >> Just super peaceful. >> Um >> when he passed away. >> Yeah, it was amazing. >> What was that like? >> Um like he was being ushered in to heaven. >> It was very peaceful. It was amazing. >> You You were with him when >> I was with him. Yeah. With me, my grandma, my mom, and my uncle were there. Um he was he was a good man. >> Wow. >> So you guys end up moving in with him? >> We moved in with them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Moved in with in uh with the in-law. Uh well, not in-law. Well, for my dad it was in-law. So yeah, grandparents and uh I saw a different I don't want to say different cuz I saw it with my mom, but a different Christianity. H >> um they prayed every night >> together as a family and they were what are you thankful for, >> you know, and uh >> the science of that. >> Yeah. >> Saying five things you're thankful for every day. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was crazy. >> Chemically alters your brain. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I was in this really dark place, but it was like a um like a homeless man looking into like a nice family, you know, like a like a feast inside. And it's like >> I want that. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> and um >> there was a youth group and at first I went cuz I just wanted to be around girls and pizza and you know uh so I started going. It's the reason why most young dudes go to youth. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Um so I I started going and that was an escape for me >> for my life. >> And I remember it's funny like um if I couldn't make it I would get so angry. >> No, I'm going to use my church. Um, and a couple that's that's where things that's where the rubber met the road. >> Um, I remember there's one guy, two guys, brothers. I never met anyone like them before. >> They walked with God >> and had a relationship with God. I didn't understand that. M >> and they asked me how my walk with God was going and my relationship with God. And I was like, >> "What are you talking about?" >> Good, I guess. Um, it was like asking me how my relationship is with Abraham Lincoln. Like, >> yeah, >> I don't know. I mean, I guess me and Abe were okay. Yeah. you know, like I hope he likes me, you know, like >> um God was more of an idea than a person in my life that was doing things and was active and working. >> And that was the first time I was really challenged on that. And I remember I was sitting in youth group and I went in the other reason was I like to play my little guitar, you know, play my little guitar in the background. Um, probably because I want to be recognized, but who knows? Um, and I remember one night the pastor, youth pastor guy, really cool guy, he opened up by saying, um, if if you're missing joy and peace in your life, this this message is for you. >> I remember just sitting because usually I don't care. I didn't listen. >> Can you hurry up, please? I want pizza. >> Mhm. And I I tuned in because I was like, "Joy and peace. What does it even feel like? What is joy and peace? All I know is chaos and fr like hate, >> darkness." >> Yeah. >> You know, um and uh I remember him talking about God as light and darkness. start out with concept of light and darkness and walking in the light, walking with God and versus walking in darkness. And he took a he had a picture of the yin and yang symbol, you know, >> where's like light and darkness swirling together and he crumpled it and threw it in the background. He said that is trash. >> God is light and in him is no darkness. >> And that God is a perfect and this is what God made a perfect heavenly father. And that drew me. >> Um, like I said, I love my dad and um, but he wasn't perfect. >> He wasn't a perfectly perfect heavenly father. There were things missing that I didn't get. >> And God was a perfect heavenly father. >> And um, I want him to know what that was like. >> Yeah. and that this when you walk with God and you're walking in the light and you turn from darkness that there's you can find joy and peace >> and who God is and love and I wanted that >> and that Christ died to make that possible >> and never thought of it like that before. I think that planted a seed. >> Is that is that like then there's this moment and everything changes? No, that wasn't the moment yet. >> Mhm. >> Um, I went to to I wasn't supposed to be able to go to camp, but someone paid for me to go to camp. I don't know if you're out there listening, thank you. Um, someone paid for me to go to camp, and I remember meeting just the most Jesus. The first time I'd met people that were just like total life abandonment, like >> Jesus is everything. >> Yeah. you know, like you can take everything from me. If I have Jesus, I have everything. >> And I was like, you're crazy. >> I I didn't get it. Um, and I remember the the teaching, the worship was amazing. and the teaching. Uh I remember he the the guy opened up by talking about really the doctrine of total depravity how dead we are >> that the zombie a zombie is dead. It doesn't feel anything you know and when you're dead you can't respond. you're dead, you know, and that we are dead in sin, completely incapable of love and life, the love and life of God. I don't want to say that people are completely incapable of love because, you know, there's people that don't know Christ that are capable of human love, which is >> you love me, I love you, >> you know, but the love of God is something special. The love of God is >> I love you and you don't deserve it. Not based on who you are and what you can give me, but based on the fact that God has shown me love and mercy and I'm going to extend that to you. >> Yeah. >> As as a outpouring of what God's done in my life. >> Yeah. And that was talked about at this youth camp. >> Yes. And that's the message that broke me >> because I remember one of the next sessions. There was a lot of really good sessions, but the one that broke me and um it was a bit of a scene because nobody else was that moved by it was kind of like, >> you know, there was kind of a just another session. I was on my knees sobbing and it was kind of like, you know, and uh it was uh it was not a pretty like it's one of those awkward moments where you're like, >> you know, >> Yeah. >> And I was outside then they, you know, broke for games and pizza and you know, and uh >> you didn't care about pizza anymore. I was in the back room sobbing >> and um then I went and found a guitar and I didn't know what the words to the song were but I just started worshiping God >> and the message that got me was um just kind of a weird one but the message of the talents >> um the man who owed a great debt. >> Yeah. >> And he couldn't pay it. >> He couldn't achieve. you know, he he fell short no matter how hard he tried. He had to You can't pay that debt. >> Yeah. >> And um and they were the the master forgave him. >> You're forgiven. You're free. You're off the hook. >> And that man went and someone owed him something stupid like it was the equivalent of like a cheeseburger, I've heard. >> Yeah. >> And he took the man and threw him in jail and all this stuff. >> Yeah. The master went and found that man and uh I forgot what happened if he had him killed or I don't know what it was but he didn't end up right. >> We It's It's hilarious that you're bringing this up. This is what we just read in family Bible time this morning. No way. Is is Matthew 18. >> Yes. >> Um where where it talks about this and it's Yeah. that there's a a man who owed a very great sum of money to his his master and >> uh his master said, "Hey, it's time for you to pay." and he said, 'I can't pay. Please be patient with me. And um he says, 'You know what? I have pity on you and uh I'm going to forgive you your entire debt and I'm going to set you free. >> Mhm. >> Um and that same that same servant turns around to another servant and says, "Hey, you owe me a cheeseburger." And he has him thrown in jail. And um you know, then the rest of the servants observe this and they go, "You know what? we're gonna go tell this to our master. And they go and they they tell the master and the master comes and he says, >> "I just forgave you a great sum." >> Like how ridiculous. >> You turned around and you're >> ridiculous man. >> And so he has him thrown in in jail. >> Yeah. Like that's the And I knew I was that man because I hated my father. I knew I was under a debt of sin. And by the way, you know what? most that is the the number one most common thing that all these people on death row they did a study on this all have in common the young men you know what they all have in common they hate their fathers >> they all of them disrespect and hate their fathers >> and um you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your father in heaven forgive you if you don't forgive It eats you up. >> Yeah. >> It destroys you. >> Yeah. >> That's the reality of it. And uh I forgot to throw in there the reason why I say that was at that point in my life, I think leading up to that week, I was seriously planning suicide. And um I was trying to make it look like an accident, you know, so I wouldn't have the, you know, I didn't want to be remembered that way. So >> I could like whoops, he died, you know. I was like, oh, what a tragedy, you know, >> and my life would have just been cut short right there, you know, >> and um probably how it should have ended because I don't think I would have made it through >> that was the beginning of my struggle. That was nothing, >> you know, if that was where I was ready to if that was where I was ready to ring the bell, >> I wouldn't have made it through everything that's happened. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. And um I definitely especially with all the hate and the sin that was in my life, I wouldn't have my my um we're not perfect, but my h you know, and we're not we have our struggles, but >> my beautiful little family now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I mean, so this this moment at youth group, you're in this this place, you're walking into this youth camp, you're in a place where you're suicidal, you hate your father at the time. Um, I mean, you hear this message about the the servant who's forgiven and then holds on to this this debt. Um, you realize you're that man. >> Yeah. >> I mean, is it like really just on a practical side of things, is it like you have this whole encounter, you're like, "That's me, and I forgive my dad?" >> Well, uh, I think that was part of it. I don't know if I fully forgave. I think I did. I think I realize that. >> But I think with a lot of things, >> how do I put this? Some people when Jesus they encountered Jesus, it was like they were healed. >> Mhm. >> And they never went back. >> You know, other people was more of a process. >> You know, you do this and then you get the mud and you put on your eyes and you could see a little bit. Um, and then he I I forgot what it was, but I know there's a there's a story like that, you know, >> it's like incremental healing. >> Yes. >> Kind of thing. Yeah. >> And I think that's more my story because it wasn't like >> I wish it was. >> Yeah. I am, >> but it wasn't like, oh my gosh, I'm free from pornography. I love everybody now. I've forgiven my father. And >> you know what I mean? >> Life is all sunshine and rainbows. >> Life is all sunshine and rainbows. I think that that's something that >> we as Christians can often do is is kind of make it seem like, oh, there was this moment everything changed and then it was like >> and now I'll never sin again. >> Exactly. Right. And but that's just not the case. And we know that >> for some people for for some people it is. I've heard people like that. They came out of the Jesus revolution. It was like God healed me that day. >> I never looked back. >> Yeah. >> You know, unfortunately that wasn't me. >> It was a process. >> Yeah. >> And uh but I think something happened that day. something was born. >> Something that wasn't there before was there. >> And I had a hunger for something that I didn't understand. >> And luckily that that seed that was planted, you know, there's different the parable of the seed in the sewer. Um, and it falls by different, you know, different grounds. >> Yeah. And I think my heart was was ready to receive the gospel and I received it and it it it took plant in my heart. >> Um and so we ended up my dad ended up getting better again. >> And um >> you know to his respect he he worked all the way through that. He he was always working. That's the thing I respect about my dad is he >> he never quit. >> Yeah. >> I mean to this day he's he's running a business that everyone nobody believed in him and he somehow made it work. >> Yeah. >> Like call it stubbornness, call it whatever you want. He never quit. >> Yeah. >> You know, and you've got to find something that not that's not the only thing I respect about him, but something that you can take away from your parents, you know. >> Yeah. >> That you can respect and you can hold on to. You can take the good with you, >> you know. Cuz I mean, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, man, it doesn't >> there's always there's always some good. >> There's always some good to find the good, >> you know. >> Yeah. But but that being said, um >> I mean I I also do think that it's it's one of those things too where often we can uh >> we can see the good, talk about the good, and almost like turn a blind eye. >> Yeah. >> To the bad sometimes. >> Yeah, that's true. I think I think there's an element of though is is love covers a multitude of sins. >> You know, >> my dad had some failings. I know that. He wasn't perfect, >> but I learned to forgive him. >> Yeah. >> And that's a part of my story that I was in the later when I was this is when I had known you. I was in the youth group and I remember the um they knew whenever I would someone would bring up my dad, I would tense up >> and it was like just I was like, "Yo, what was that?" >> You know, I was like, "Don't talk about my dad." >> Yeah. you know, and um I had to work through that. >> I had to I had to learn to forgive him. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> Yeah. >> And um >> but how long how long after that that youth camp experience was did you guys move back to California and like >> almost right away. We were in California, but we were in um Valley, which is out by Belmont. So >> yeah. >> Um >> so you guys move down to Huntington Beach area. >> Huntington Beach again. >> Yeah. And you were back in Huntington Beach. made it back. Yeah, >> that's when you and I meet. >> That's when I met Seth Caseer. That's right. Yep. >> Seth's class. I remember that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Those are some good times. Um Yeah. Came down here, met you guys, and I was the timid, shy little kid playing my guitar in the corner. >> I don't know if I would describe you as timid or shy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's probably true. But I mean, so you know, you're you're at this um you get plugged into youth group, too. I we were there together. >> Um and and we um you know, we both know the youth group that we >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Sun. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. >> Problems. >> Yeah. >> Problems. But ultimately, they were the ones that took me under the older men, wise men that took me under their wing >> and were were like, "You need to your roots need to grow deep." >> Yeah. >> You need to read the Bible. >> You need to serve. um you need to um just push pushed me, >> you know, >> and I um James Wright, >> James Wright, he uh he took me under his wing and um he took me to Psalms 1 and he talked about he showed me where it talks about how he who meditates both day and night >> on the law of the Lord both day and night will be like a tree planted by the rivers of water and will not be shaken. It bears good fruit >> in I think it's a in and out of season. I don't remember exactly, but that concept the concept of >> being like a tree planted, >> you know, cuz I was um >> when you're when you're a new Christian, you're just kind of you're like that little sprout that comes up, you know, >> you're vulnerable, >> you know, and um I didn't know it, but I just I started to love worship music. I couldn't care less before about worship music. It was like, why are they always singing about the love and grace of God? It's so annoying. can you think about sing about something else? Like I don't know. >> And um I just I remember I'd put my headphones on and I would just I had a whole playlist and I just loved my worship music. >> Yeah. >> And I didn't realize it, but that what is what was there's so much scripture >> with your headphones and your rollerblades >> and my rollerblades. You remember the rollerblades? The rollerblades were awesome. I wore those things out. Um, it's a it's a sad story though because I was running I was running from home >> and you know uh I had everybody knew me kind of like we were talking about >> Yeah. >> Um from the outside >> what people see on the outside. >> Yeah. >> But on the inside I was running. >> Yeah. >> You know and um Yeah. What was um I mean what was at that point in your life, you know, we're talking 15, 16, 17 kind of thing. >> Yeah, that kind of time. That was a good time. >> What was um what did home look like at that time? >> It got darker. >> Got darker. >> How so? um just the threads of everything started to come apart, >> you know. Um and I think like any any divorce situation, you know, any any broken family, it's probably a little bit it's a little bit of both, you know. Um and and just I love my parents, but it it crumbled, you know. things started to crumble at home and uh I kind of ran from that and um yeah, I didn't have that stability kind of kind of fell apart a little bit, you know, and that that foundation. But at that point, um I started to I was reading my Bible. I was learning and I was Um, I was able to be I had I had my own foundation to stand on, >> you know. >> Yeah. >> I had I had some I had a place I could run to. >> Yeah. >> You know, I had a hiding place >> where I was always loved and I was always accepted, >> you know. And um I knew a heavenly father that was perfect. >> Yeah. you know, and not that I didn't need my dad anymore. >> Yeah. >> And I think I ran because I was still working through a lot of stuff, >> you know, but yeah, unfortunately things things didn't get better. They they just got worse and and I I want to kind of skim over some of, you know, what happened because I want to kind of protect, you know, my my family from just the stuff. But, you know, it fell apart. And um um >> I mean, without going into without going into detail, I mean, what's what's like >> I mean, when you're talking about it falling apart, is it like >> is there um is there abuse that's going on in the home? Is there like um is there substance abuse? like what what what was the without going into detail of it, it's like what was the the catalyst for that that darkness that you're talking about? >> To be honest, I don't know. >> I don't know what the catalyst was at that point. I uh I lived on the road kind of. >> I wasn't home much. >> I was in high school and I slept at your house >> and I slept at Chase's house and I was hanging out with Michael Sweeney. And you know that we at 4 in the morning, we crashed on your trampoline in your backyard. Yes. When we had worship practice or we had we were playing on the band the next morning at 6:00 a.m. We're like, "Dude, it's 4:00 a.m. Where are we going to sleep?" We could always sleep in Seth's house. >> And your house was locked, so we just climbed through in the backyard. I think we broke into a window and ended up sleeping in your bed for like the rest of the night. You didn't even know. And then like after that, your parents got like cameras and stuff because they're like, "This is ridiculous." You know, cuz you Ellie was in the house and you can't have like like teenagers, boys breaking in your house. It was Yeah. So I was on the road. I was kind >> That was I I want to preface that our house was the place where everybody >> everybody went over was welcome over there growing up. But so that was that's not something that like is out of the blue kind of thing. >> Yeah. We just would pop in and that's why Yeah. I loved your house. It was awesome. So I at that point I was um and uh I was pretty independent. I had I got my uh I was like I don't need a job and my dad was like you need a job. So I'm like oh >> I need a job. So I got a job working at In-N-Out and uh I was like I don't need a car. He's like you need a car. So um I bought a car and high school high school I kind of flourished as a person >> you know and I think it was at that time was so I was learning more about God and more satis and I learned about satisfied the satisfied soul loathe the honeycomb >> that's in Proverbs when you're filled when you've eaten so >> so so much good food when you're it's like the gasoline analogy >> when you're thirsty you know you're in the you're you're in the desert and you find this polluted spring. You're like, I I have nothing else. I need this. >> Mhm. >> You know, but if you you've got plenty of fresh water, >> you're like, I got to drink from that. >> You got fresh food. You're stuffed. You don't need a honeycomb. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've got everything I need. >> Yeah. >> And so there was I I learned that that that I filled myself with with uh God's word. You know, your word I have hidden in my heart that I may not sin against you. Mhm. >> I learned to guard myself. >> Yeah. >> And um through God's spirit, he washed me >> by the water of his word. He saved me. I was incapable >> of breaking myself. I was some weird little kid. >> You know, I couldn't I didn't have the discipline. I didn't have I didn't have it. M >> you know God doesn't choose many um uh by the world's standards wise and strong. He chooses the weak things of this world to put to shame those who think they are wise. I was that >> that broken thing, you know, and um I think that that's why God has has worked in given me my story is because nobody would look at my life and have been like, "Yeah, that guy was destined for success, >> you know. Um just wasn't." >> Yeah. >> I wasn't I didn't do great in school, you know. I I made a buy, you know, >> but I was I was no engineer kid, you know. I wasn't I was I was all right, >> you know. >> But uh >> and then I mean from there I I mean one thing that I do want to talk about which is pretty awesome is like after high school you go through this this whole process in high school. I mean you um you you let me know and I know that there was one point where um you know the family kind of got so so broken that you you ended up having to kind of move. >> I didn't have a place to go. Um you were >> I can talk Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that >> on the streets a little bit, right? >> Yeah. Kind Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And so um I'll talk I'll go into that a little bit. So I was in a healthy place. I was serving and that was where I adopted >> my love for God flowed out into a love for other people. and I wasn't interested as much and that's where I I kind of drifted from I did I started out doing worship team stuff but I I kind of drifted more >> towards doing evangelism and and homeless ministry and mission trips and >> just just meeting needs of people that were broken. >> You could look into a homeless person's eyes and know what they were feeling, >> you know, and know I know exactly where they're at. M >> you not exactly because I was, you know what I mean, but like I I could feel those same things. >> Yeah. >> I had I had a compassion for those people and and broken people, people that were lost. You know, I'd go out and I' I'd talk to people at the with um >> there were some amazing people, Dane Nelson and all the guys that just took me under their wing and and taught me about >> just just prayer and supplication. It was amazing. It was a fruitful time in my life that changed me and changed my direction and gave me and I knew the Bible. I read every day, not as like a, oh, I read the Bible, just because I was so hungry. Yeah. >> I think an hour and a half a night. I was just devouring it every night. I was like, you need to do homework. >> It's like >> um and so I had I I I was doing well. I was healthy. And that's when you you guys were kind of popular. You guys were a popular family. And you guys were kind of what we were before the calamity struck, you know, like you guys just were just just very like pleasant to be around and and God had blessed your family in that time, you know, and and you were your family was able to be kind of a shelter for for me. >> Yeah. And um >> I would say even just to to give context too, which this isn't a story that's been said, but we've been I've been talking about it with my parents too, but that's like that was the case at that time all throughout high school. That was like that whole thing. And like right at the end of high school, it's like when when calamity struck >> calamity struck >> my my family. And that that whole picture was was challenged and and I so I I mean I I relate with you on the on the side of things of watching that watching that >> crumble >> fall apart a little bit. Yeah. >> Um >> what do you cling to? Where do you turn? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, for me, I was I was out of the house at that point when when >> calamity struck, >> you know, when all that happened and there there ended up being a big church split. >> I remember that. >> Um >> and my family kind of got caught in in the middle of the whole thing. And >> I remember that. >> Um Yeah, it was really gnarly. >> It was a hard time. I cried when I heard about it. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I cried because it was that was my family. >> Yeah. >> The church was my family. >> Yeah. >> I had a new family in Christ. And and when I heard about that, it was horrible. >> It was very, very hard. Sent our family into a really dark place. >> I remember that. >> I didn't see you guys much after that, unfortunately. I don't I don't know what happened. And that's where I kind of went dark a little bit >> cuz I was I had a lot of different groups I hung out with. >> Um >> and uh yeah, I kind of I I don't know if I completely lost contact with you, but we kind of just had separate ways at that point. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean at that point it was that was first year of of our marriage, me and my wife and um we had moved churches at that time and um uh so we were we were kind of disconnected from it but we saw the fallout >> um >> that that happened in uh yeah we saw the whole fallout that happened in um you know our our family and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. >> So >> you can relate. >> Yeah, >> you can relate. >> Yeah, 100%. But I mean, from there, I mean, you're you ended up um like like we're talking about. >> Yeah. So, I'll get to that. So, I um I got to speed it up, but um how much time do we have? I got to kind of watch time cuz uh I'll How much time do we Are we okay on time? >> Let's go. Yeah. I mean, we've been going for about an hour. >> Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. >> I'll keep I'll speed it up. >> There's some There's some good stuff. >> There's some good stuff. um my picture, my world, all of it crumbled. You know, the it went away. >> My family went away. It was gone. >> Um and my dad had stuff he was dealing with. My mom had stuff we were dealing with. And um I was on my own in the world. >> M >> you know and a lot of your a lot of your respect comes from your family. >> You know in the Old Testament is who's your father? Yeah. You know >> and uh >> and uh the poor the poor man his his friends stand far off from him >> and I experienced that firsthand. Yeah. you know, when I was young and I kind of did well in like I wasn't popular, but like I had my fun little yellow car and like, >> you know, like uh like I knew a lot of people and I I just hung out and >> yeah, >> I was happy, you know, >> and um when I when that happened to my family >> and this is like tail end of high school, right? >> This was college. I was going to Biola University and um I had to drop out because there was no money. >> Accounts were drained. Gone. Everything gone. The wealth was gone. 100% gone. >> Nothing. >> My wealth wealthy Porsche driving sports car 4,000 5,000 foot house family. >> Yeah. >> 401k respected father. All the thing gone. >> Nothing. Completely gone. I remember we were we were sweeping up. We were getting getting evicted and sweeping up into a pile, >> you know, this little pile of rubble. It was like everything we worked for >> reduced to a pile of rubble. And I think that's that's a a warning to people how how everything the American dream can crumble like that. >> Wealth grows itself wings and flies away. >> Can be gone, you know. And when that happens, what do you cling to? >> What when when the waves when the waves hit your life, what have you built your life on? >> Can everything be taken away from you? >> If we take everything away from you, what do you have left? Do you have Christ? You have a foundation, you know? So, sorry I'm getting kind of intense, preacher. >> No, no, no. >> Um, but uh so I'll speed it up. Um, I struggled when when that hit, I struggled on the edge of bitterness because the people that loved me seemed to stand off >> and I was on my own. And it was me and my Schwin bike >> uh, and the road pretty much against the world. And I was working in and out and I worked there and I did odd jobs. And at one point I was riding like 34 miles a day on a Schwin bike working two jobs to just I was I had to budget how much food I ate because I wasn't making enough and paying rent and I looked homeless because I was wearing all my backpack and tools and I was scrawny, >> you know, because I wasn't eating a lot and I was my face was disfigured because I was hardened, you know, from what happened. And I was just just stuff was going on and I was struggling to not be bitter. >> And um you know that that type of person's hard to be around. >> You know, I remember I'd walk into church and it was kind of like there was there was a select few people. >> Danny and Megan took me in. This family took me in >> and um I I own the world. You know, the Barling family, they took me. I was I was it was messy. >> And they I remember the day I they picked me up, they put my clothes, they had everything packed when I got home and I just remember standing there crying, >> you know, that somebody would do that for me. >> Yeah. >> And uh I I owe them. Um long story short, I ended up climbing out of that and um working my way up. I was electrician. I was in Huntington Beach. Back back in Huntington Beach. I was doing well. >> Yeah. >> But something in my life was missing >> and a massive shift happened. >> Massive shift happened. I was I finally >> made this decision. >> I finally got back, you know, and I was I was back to happy shiny, you know, and people were I was go, you know, I was swing dancing and going to the, you know, people I could go into groups and it was I was the cool guy again, you know, and as some of my friends started to come back around and life was just good, you know. I had I was I was just kind of a singler. I was had my little incandescent light bulb above my little kitchen. I just I went ate steak every day. I was just I was just happy. >> Yeah. >> But something was missing, you know. Um and that youth camp was like, "Hey, you should come work for us full-time." >> And uh it was I knew it was a terrible career decision because I finally got to where and I I was I remember talking with my dad. He's like, "What are you doing?" Cuz I I at that point I had forgiven my dad. Mhm. >> I remember I forgave him of everything and and >> God started to mend our relationship, >> you know, in one point >> I just remember him being like, "Hey, man. I'm sorry." >> Like, >> wow. >> And it was it was a cool moment, you know, just that reconciliation with my dad >> getting that apology. >> I just had breakfast with him this morning and got to show him my happy little family, you know. >> Yeah. >> Is amazing. And um uh so I decided I was done with the world's approval. I seen how fickle it was. >> I didn't care. >> Yeah. >> This is all just fluff. I could see how it could all go away. So I left it. I threw it away. >> You became a mountain man. >> I became a mountain man. I went from surfer Dave to Chainsaw Dave. I was chainsaw. That was >> That was what your name was out there. >> Yeah. I was chainsaw. That was my Yeah. Mr. Chainsaw. I mean, you basically went and and uh were the maintenance guy at a foster camp. >> Yeah, I did a bunch of stuff. I did worship and counseling. I was just kind of I was kind of their wild card. >> But you were like the full time >> I was full staff member. Yeah, I was a car caretaker. >> Wow. >> And um I loved it. That was I remember sitting there and telling my story and um just saying, "You know what? I think I'm the richest and happiest man alive. right here with you guys right now. >> Couldn't be richer, happier. >> I didn't have a family. I didn't have money. I had nothing >> by the world standards. And I had everything, >> you know. >> So, um I got to speed it up. >> Yeah. >> That my God bless me. Was I I had given up on the dating thing. I just like peace out. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> yeah. >> Um >> but you met your wife at camp. I was hiding in the mountains and uh God literally brought my wife to me >> and she was this classy Persian, you know, girl. She showed up in this fancy car and I'm like she was wearing fancy shoes like oo. And I was I remember um we to I took him on a hike and I dropped her in a river. >> Um yeah. Yeah. We were I was I saw the ground like I saw two people jump over and then I was like that's going to give out and then she goes down the river. I'm like, >> "Dang." >> Yeah. So, she's going to hate me, you know, and I liked her. I started falling, you know, they invited me some stuff and I followed her around and um fell in love. >> Yeah. >> And uh I feel like everybody else that I had kind of I don't know if you call it dating or whatever, they wanted something from me. I was just a means to an end whether it was money or >> you know it's just they just wanted something from me. It was like a you go to this the horse market or whatever and it's like oh well this one's a thorough bread and I had trouble dating because I think you'd get to like the family thing and it was like oh you have a broken family it's like oh damaged >> you know um >> she didn't see that >> she loved me for me >> and I saw that and I loved her for her. >> Wow. And um and she was beautiful. Um that helps. >> Um so um >> so you guys end up getting married. >> We got married >> and but that even that was a big decision because you ended up having to leave this >> this camp. Yeah. >> Right. >> There's a few reasons. Yeah. She had she has type 1 diabetes and it was just it wasn't a good fit anymore. You know, it was good for that time and I loved it but >> um yeah, I left. >> Yeah. >> And um but I left with the wrong mentality. I left with the mentality of I'm going to do this now. >> I think I had learned how to be single, but there was this like all these things about being >> I think my framework of what it meant to be a dad and a husband and all these things and >> excuse me, I'm going to pull, you know, like I'm going to do this, you know? Yeah. >> Like this warrior mentality. >> Yeah. The Viking mentality. >> The Viking mentality a little bit like >> and it's like okay now it's >> if there's a mountain to move, I will move it, you know. And um I went to go work for my uncle and he had this business doing earthquake bracing which you can crawl under houses and you brace up foundations. But the way he ran it was like it was that Viking mentality. It was one man. >> Yeah. >> One house a day >> and it was >> I just I mean I just remember you at this time bro just like you were freaking working >> so hard and just like with that mentality of like I'm going to do it. I don't care how long it takes me. I don't care how hard it is. I will die in this pit. I'm going to do it. >> And I broke. I went until my body I remember every day waking up and I I remember it was so sad the day that my wife announced me that we were pregnant for the first time and I was just coming out of the the the like the room and I could barely walk. It was just like be a dad, >> you know? And I remember it wasn't long after that that it was hot. And I I remember that morning I was like, I can't go to work today. I can't do it. >> And it was like, you have to. >> So I showed up and I crawled out of the car and I I crawled over and I did a first round and I started I started to feel weird under the house. And >> And you're like just just to to preface, you're like climbing under houses and like bracing these houses for earthquakes now. And I have height I have cola phobia and I had to literally dig holes under and then squeeze shimmy my body under and to where like to use I I had I couldn't roll. You couldn't roll it. It was crazy. Um and that you were by yourself in this dark pit. I was seeing things. It was crazy. But um I ended up my strength failed me. I collapsed. I literally collapsed on the job site and my uncle called me >> and he's a spark. So he's like, "Get up. You can do it. Get up." >> Yeah. And I was like, I don't think you understand. I literally can't move my legs right now. Like I I literally my body like I was like I was shutting down. My body actually re reached collapse. My strength failed me, you know? I thought I can do this by my own mind. I'm going to take care of my family. I'm going to do this. >> And I failed. I collapsed. My strength wasn't enough. >> And I kind of retreated. I ran with my tail between my legs. Moved in with the in-laws. They were generous. They took us in. They moved to to Tennessee and we went with them. >> After that point is like this this breaking point where you're like my body can't take this anymore. >> But also just couple weeks after you find out that you guys are going to have a baby. >> Yeah. >> And it's like what do you do? And like you said, Yeah. I mean >> I I buckled. >> And so you move in with the in-laws >> and they end up moving to Tennessee. >> Tennessee, >> right? >> And we had the miscarriage. Then we lost that baby. >> Okay, that was >> we found out it was going to be tricomeme 13. So we were wrestling with >> raising this child, you know, how we were gonna Thank Thank you. We we've worked through it. >> Um how we're going to raise this child and we lost the child and it was it was devastating. >> I mean I know we're you know you guys end up after a little while too having another miscarriage. >> Yeah. >> Too. And it's like I mean what what is what is that like in the midst of this mentality that's like I'm gonna do it and then you're broken and then you guys lose a baby. >> We were shattered. >> We were just broken. >> What did that >> What did that feel like? Can you >> speak to >> powerless? You can't do anything >> and it's just pain. It's like an earthquake. It just uh it comes in waves, you know. I remember my wife, she uh she was fine, she was strong, and then she just break down >> and then it was she's fine. She was strong. She break down >> and we started having marital issues like really just >> we we up until that point we were just it was like I think a lot of people they talk about they get married and then they fight like cats and dogs, you know, right off the bat. It was not that for us. We were >> the happiest couple, you know, we really were. and calamity struck and it it just shook us shook our marriage and and I really believe that there's a reason why God says leave your father and mother and be joined to your wife you know that you're supposed to be your own family union I think we disobeyed by I think for a few months you know to get on your feet but we didn't not the way we did it >> we made permanent residents we we joined families we meshed families and >> we felt like siblings in in a family and we weren't really married. We were just kind of there, you know, >> and it was weird. >> Yeah. >> And we lived that way for for years. And it was we both recognized that as the worst two years of our lives of all the stuff I've been through. >> Pales in comparison to that. Marital issues are the worst. Yes. >> I mean, >> for both of us. >> Yeah. I can completely agree with you on that one. >> And I don't want to blame it all on living with the in-laws. I had issues. We had stuff we had to work through. >> But yeah. >> Wow. >> So, we moved to Tennessee and I I was like, you know what? I can provide. And then I got there and they told me they didn't like me cuz I was they said I was like uh they act like a Yankee or something like that. >> They called you a Yankee. >> Yeah. They called me like you're like a Yankee. We don't like Yankees. And I'm like what does that mean? I don't know what that means. I just need a job. And so um they told me I obviously didn't I was I was still and I I don't blame them in a sense because I was so frazzled from everything going on. I just walked on the job site and I thought I could just you know swing and I I batted out. They told me I obviously didn't know what I was doing. I was so insulted by that that the tribal instinct, you know, kicked in. I was like, I will prove you wrong. >> I am worth something, you know, and I spent I feel like I wasted two years and I ended up by my own wit getting to the top. >> I made it to the top. I had people cussing me out to my face when I got promoted, you know, when I was the guy doing the plans and I was working overtime and I was like, "All right, see you. Go home. I'm gonna be here another four hours, >> you know, >> can't take it, that's on you, >> you know, >> and um first of all, that's not a great productivity thing. >> And I mean, as I'm sure is uh >> it's partially a coping mechanism for what was >> even going on at home at all these things. >> It was I was I was hiding and that was horrible for my wife. I can't believe she's still with me after that. I was hiding. >> It was and it was a it was a coping mechanism. >> Yeah. for for to just just work and I could drown out my sorrow. Instead of processing pain, I just worked. >> And I think that that's something that we uh we allow. >> Yeah. >> As a as as men, you know, it's like, well, you know, if if you're turning to alcohol is your vice, if you're turning to pornography as your vice, if you're turning to, you know, substance abuse is your vice, anger is your vice, you know, all those things, it's like, yeah, those things are probably you shouldn't do that. But if you turn to work as your vice, then it's like we we allow that. >> Yeah. >> And um I don't think that that's a a good thing whatsoever. >> Yeah. So I was probably I was a miserable person to be around and they hated me and I don't blame them for it. Mh. >> Um, >> and I think I was kind of in that struggling with bitterness, you know, >> kind of that >> do you let do you let the trials make you bitter or do you turn to God and let him be your rock and heal? You let him bring healing. >> Yeah. >> Or do you let it harden you? >> Yeah. And um >> and I mean from from the the the journey that you've been on, dude, it's I think it's one of um a lot of depth, of a lot of hurt. >> Yeah. >> Um of a lot of uh um being let down and then trying being let down and trying in your own strength and these different things. And like >> um we talk about it now. It's like I you you told me the other day that like even in Tennessee at that thing working your way all the way up like you got there >> and then the company sank >> and then the company sank >> and the guy that the guy that insulted me I went headtohead with him and I took him >> and it was like I got it. the guy that treated me terrible, treated me like a dog. They were let it firing and keeping me because I was better. And it was like, >> yeah, >> you know, and you know what? I got to the top and it was like, good job. You won. >> That was it. That that's not the feeling I fought for. >> It was so empty. >> Yeah. And I think I realized that and I realized I think I think if I wasn't a Christian, God might have let me, you know, if I was just in a material sense, maybe would have let that company survive and been successful. But I think it was maybe one of those um Tower of Babel things where was like >> we're going to pull the plug on that. He pulled the plug. >> And um I had tried by my own whit. And it kind of there's not a whole it's not like out here where you've got so many options. There's >> I didn't have a lot of other options. And uh and that's it. I failed by my own wit. >> Couldn't keep the company alive. I was He wanted me to save the company. I had a program that was going to save the company and I failed. >> My program failed. It wasn't enough to save the company and I thought it was >> and I failed. My wit failed me. My strength failed me and my wit failed me. >> And um then that's when I was like, you know what? God's promised to provide. If he wants us out of this house, he's going to get us out of this house. And I had the job that I I I'm working now >> on the table and I left it there because I wanted to fix this broke this thing. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, you know what? Give him a call. >> Yeah. >> And every since I've just been like trusting God, it's like I had a number. I was fighting for a number to be worth. >> And I had I was not leaving unless I had a van. I was the one driving the van. I was the journeyman. I was I wanted I was fighting and um I wanted to be in charge. >> I want to have people under me, >> you know. And it was like when I gave that up and I said, you know what? I'm just going to honor God >> and trust him. >> I have all the things I was fighting for. >> He gave them to me >> and I didn't have to cut my way in line and fight. And the people that there was people out to get me >> that did not like me. There were people working against my family. And I learned that God will fight your battles. >> Let God be the balancer of the scales. It's not your job. It's God's job. >> Justice is mine. >> Yeah. >> You know, vengeance is mine, sayaith the Lord. Let him defend you. >> You know, when and I did and he's he's taking care of us. We're no by no means rich, but it's like just looking back, I shouldn't to kind of wrap it all up in a pretty bow. >> We have um by no means the American dream, but we have a little house we rent just what we need. All of our We're out of debt. We paid off all our stuff. >> Come on. and I have a job where I can see my family and my wife stays home and um we're providing for God takes care of us. Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, mind your own business, and to work with your hands. >> And this is the will of God. Give thanks in all things. You know, pray always without ceasing and everything rejoice. And we get to live that. >> God has given us that. He has provided. He took a life that was supposed to end and he look made something beautiful out of it >> and he did it. I I can't look back and say, you know what, I did this. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I'm not anything I'm not anything special. >> You know, so >> you are David Sparks. >> I'm David Sparks. I know that. >> Last last thing, David. I mean, is there >> um you know, answering both of these questions kind of at the same time, but it's like if there's somebody that is in your position beforehand that um you know, talking to all these things, I think you're going to have a similar answer for these. But I mean, in the midst of um a family that is uh is falling apart, in the midst of um somebody that might have hatred towards their father, um in the midst of somebody that might have, >> you know, um lost a child and and gone through >> or a few children, >> a few children, um going through a a horrible calamity, >> people out to get you. um people out to get you trying in your own strength to just do it. >> I mean, can you look at that camera? What do you say to that person in that moment? What was the advice that you wish you would have heard and the advice that you wish you would have um actually taken and and let root in you? >> Trust in the Lord with all of your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways and he will direct your paths. Job didn't understand why everything was happening to him. He didn't understand. But in everything that happened, he never charged God with evil or doing wrong. Hold on to your faith. Be grounded in the word. Know you need a foundation. You need to be like that tree. root yourself in the scripture so that when those times come, you have a you have a foundation to cling to. And don't do it on your own strength because you will fail. And when you fail, know that God is merciful and um he's faithful to forgive and he'll pick you up and give you the strength. He provides the strength. Cry out to him for strength and he will give you what you need to get through. Um and uh that's Psalms got me through a lot. You know, I'm just crying out to God and and uh that was one of the hard things. It was like, why doesn't he give me all the strength I need? doesn't he lets us he allows us to go through hard things so that he can grow us so he can refine us and know that God is doing that and that um he is loving he is good he is light and there is hope and um he is that hope and you have to cling to that when times get hard and everything falls apart you need to have a foundation you need to have a hope something that people can't take away from you. Um, and uh, that's what Christ is. Christ is a rock and he died so that we can be forgiven so that we can have a second chance. you can put shame behind you. And uh um he died to to to free us to give us the power over sin to to justify us to put behind to forgive us from all the things that are behind us so we can we can focus on living a holy life having all the things he wants to bless us. He wants to make us rich in not in a monetary sense but in a spiritual sense. He wants to bless us >> and that's the heart of God. That's the heart of a father. He wants to bless his children. And it doesn't always look like what you think it's going to look like. And you have to realize that God is bigger than you. Just like in Job's situation, um you're not going to understand. How how does God why is God allowing? I don't know, you know, but I know he's good. >> And uh I know that he died for me and I know the good things he's done for me and that he has a reason. And I have to trust. Trust in the Lord with all of your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all of your ways. He will direct your steps. That is a promise that you can cling to. So, yeah. David, are there any um are there any books or any songs you would suggest people listen to when they're in the midst of these moments? Is there any anything that you've read or listened to that's helped you? um cliche but the Bible um specifically um Psalms when if you're hurting go to the Psalms you know if you need wisdom proverbs is there >> um if you need if you need spirit always be reading through the gospels and through >> um all the the letters of the New Testament you know you have to be continually being filled with the knowledge of God, you need that like food every day. >> Um, >> and if you don't, you'll starve and die as a Christian. That's the reality of the the situation. You have to have it, >> you know. Start viewing the Bible as sustenance >> and not as a chore, >> you know. Um, so yeah, that's my songs. um uh solid worship music because I listened to a lot of songs for a minute that were like misleading that God was going to give me what I wanted and that I was the one in charge >> and God was like my little pet on, you know, little pet on a string. I say, "God, go here. God, go do this." And God go here, God, go do that. >> But we are his. >> He's the master. We're we're the we're the ones, you know, to be guided. >> Yeah. >> And to be to be instructed, not him, you know, and to view prayer like that >> that >> he has a will. what is his will >> for you? Not as you inserting your will. >> I mean, we can we can pray and ask God, but but to find out what the will of God is and to to pray for that, >> that's you know, >> um >> and so, yeah, be careful with with with uh worship music with uh misleading theology. >> So, >> are there any are there any artists that you're like, I love this artist and they're solid and I love their theology? Oh man, I like City of Light. They're pretty solid. Um Chris Tomlin's always hard to go wrong with Chris Tomman. He's a great guy. Um I actually I haven't kept I've been really busy. I haven't kept up with a lot of guys recently, so I don't know if they've fallen off the edge on their theology. I know. Um old Phil Wickham was great. Um Matt Redmond. >> Yeah, solid suggestions. >> Yeah, back in the day. David, thank you so much for absolutely being on the podcast and telling your story and um being real and vulnerable and and talking about the the things that you've gone through. Um I know that this is really going to help a lot of people. >> I hope so. Um, and if you're out there, um, and you're listening to this and you find yourself in a, uh, similar season, we talked about a lot of different things that David has gone through. And, um, if you need community, um, know that there are people who, uh, who want to be here for you and in your life. Over and over again on this podcast, we talk about the importance of community. And so if you are going through hardships right now, um I encourage you call those people that you know care for you. Um we're also here for you too. Our comment section is a place where um if you're going through something, you can share and um we're we're here for you. We want to help you, give you the resources that you need. And so um yeah, you guys please like, subscribe. That helps us out a lot. Honestly, it helps this channel to to keep going. Um, and yeah, David, thank you so much. >> Absolutely. Thanks for having me, >> being on the podcast. And >> absolutely. >> I love you, man. >> You, too, man.