Pivot Or Die

Everything that could go wrong went wrong and it became very clear who God had us there for. >> If we had waited one more week, he wouldn't have been placed with us. At 40, you reach a point where you're having permanent brain damage. >> His numbers were over 75 up to 100. It's never been as hard >> Yeah. >> as when it's your child. >> And what do you do? Make another pivot. Welcome back everybody to the Pivot or Die podcast. My name is Seth Quaser. I'm your host and today I'm joined by my good friend Jonathan Ferguson. Jonathan, thanks for being on the podcast. >> Absolutely. I'm excited. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's great. Um Jonathan is uh among many things um a great teacher. He's a dad. He's a husband. Um you were a missionary at at one point and we're going to talk about that a little bit too. And has >> um I was I was talking to my wife about this earlier. Um your story is not um it's really interesting. Like it's an interesting life that you've lived, right? It's not one that's bland. No. >> Right. I'm I'm really excited to kind of get to dive in and um talk about these things. Yeah, I'm I'm excited to talk about it as well. I always I mean that's I'm a teacher so I love to talk. >> Yeah, seriously. >> So yeah, it's going to be great. >> Um so Jonathan I mean can you kind of take us back? I one of the things I love to do in in these is honestly like starting at like you're born and like what are you born into? What is your family dynamic like? What is life look like starting from there? and we're gonna kind of journey together through this if you're okay. Yeah. >> With that. Sorry. >> Okay. >> Um >> therapy time. Let's go. >> Yeah. Seriously, come on. Take it back. >> Yeah. So, um I was born uh into a family. I was the oldest. Uh my >> um parents were were married um and they remained married through my whole childhood. they they end up splitting up as I was a young adult. But >> uh for most of the time, my parents had that happy marriage that you think of. My uh dad worked in construction. My mom was for the most part a stay-at-home mom. She did the typical I'm going to do a little side hustle here or there kind of thing to make some extra money. But, >> uh for the most part, she was that stay-at-home mom. >> Um I have a sister who was born a couple years after me. Um, but yeah, so we lived a very stable life for the most part. I I lived in one home from the time I was three until I got married at 21. >> So for 18 years, it was this is the house I grew up in, the same neighborhood, the same neighbors, all of that. >> Um, my parents did fight, but and when they did have a fight, it was typically a big blowout. >> It was all like the tensions would build. And so then me stepping in, I'd try and be that peacemaker to try and bring the peace as the oldest, as the one that was trying to like protect my sister as well, >> uh protect my mom for my dad, my dad from my mom, cuz it would could be it could be big. >> Um and but yeah, so like I went to school, uh public school, did a couple years in a private school for junior high, but >> um yeah, just grew up in that. We uh would always go to church. >> So every Sunday typic a typical week for me like when I was in high school then at least >> I was at church on Sunday morning. >> Yeah. >> Then we'd come back for Sunday night then we'd come for Wednesday and Friday was youth group night. >> Yeah. >> So that was another So I was at church four times a week. I I completely relate with that. It almost felt like church was a a second home almost, you know. >> Um did did a lot of your um did a lot of your community as a kid come from church or was it like did you have your school friends and your church friends or were they connected? >> No, they weren't so connected. Um the majority of my friends were actually from school. >> Okay. Uh when it came to church, that was actually a a weird dynamic. >> Um I like when I was in high school at least, I I got along in with everybody in high school. >> Um I ate lunch with one group of friends, but then I was in classes with other kids. But I could sit like if I was at lunch and walked out, I could pretty much pick any table >> Yeah. >> of my my grades peers and sit there and be accepted. So, I fit in and kind of matched whatever personality was kind of going on at those at those different groups. >> When I came here to church, I say here cuz we're sitting in the church as we're recording this. That's what I'm thinking. >> Uh but when I came to the church, I didn't fit in. >> I didn't really fit in. >> And in many ways, I was the outsider at church even though I was going all the time. Um, part of that honestly was, um, when our grades moved up, I was the only incoming freshman that year. Through some weird quirk, there was nobody else. >> So, I was the freshman. And unfortunately, that name stuck. Even when I was like a junior, the seniors would still call me freshman. >> That was my name. Um, and I just didn't really get along with with the friends uh or the people at in in youth group at all. >> Yeah. >> Had great Christian friends at school, >> but at church I was going because I wanted the Bible study stuff. >> I was going for that. My sister had a different dynamic. She was great at school and at church. So, she fit in the group >> perfectly well. But for some reason, and I think a lot of it had to do with being the only one at that time of transitioning in, made me stand out. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's Yeah. I mean, that's really interesting. Um, do you feel like do you feel like at church you were less um less likely to try and kind of blend in like what you had talked about at at school a little bit? Do you feel like you were willing to kind of compromise and blend in a little bit there or was it almost like I'm at church so I should be able to not have to do that? >> Um, I think it was more on that second one. This is me. This is me at church. um this is who I am. >> So I think that the real me was there at church. >> Um and it just didn't blend well. >> And I saw like, hey, I can understand if you're outside of church and you're in in school, if you're talking a certain way or if you see certain movies, but when you come to youth group, I was expecting at least there to be a difference >> in how kids lived and how they interacted. and I didn't want to participate in that if they were at church but also doing these other I didn't necessarily want to >> match that. >> I was >> Yeah, it was different. So, it was like >> I could go and sit down with kids at school >> and be like, "All right, well, they're not Christians. I am, but I understand why they're going to act this way, why they're going to say this." And I may not jump in and make the same jokes or anything like that, but >> I also saw it for what it was. There was a difference there. when you came to church, I was like, "Well, no, I expected there I expected more." Yeah. >> And it wasn't necessarily there. >> Okay. So, you you're at the same house. And I think it's it's a it's a um an important thing just to note a little bit too, you kind of feeling like growing up, you being the the peacemaker a little bit, the one that stepped into the situations to keep everybody >> Yeah. all happy and I'm sure that that then that even blends into you at school almost like the peacemaker in all these different friend groups and doing all these different things. I think that that's just something as we continue in through the story, >> right? >> Um that that I'm sure is something that that comes up. >> Oh yeah, that's that's really a defining characteristic of of like my personality as well. So like my personality is I can I can listen to a lot of different people, >> hear their points of view and see validity in >> completely opposing points of view >> and be like you're right there and you make a really good point over here. >> How can we work together? How can we bridge that to come up with something >> that we either all are in agreement or at least uh aren't going to be angry at if we come up with like so even like with team dynamics and things like that I would I would try and find a way to bring the connection between hey you have this idea you have this idea is there a way we can do both >> to make something even better or come up with a third option that takes some of what you want and some of what this other person wants >> so that both of both of you guys and myself can feel like look what we have done together. M I'm sure that that that makes I mean this is a I know we're jumping ahead a little bit too, but I'm sure that that you as a teacher now. That's something that is probably an incredible characteristic to have as a teacher >> to try to make sure that you're not just telling one side of the story, but instead seeing both sides and really encouraging your students to see both, >> especially cuz I teach US history. Yeah. >> And so here I am and we're at the end of the school year as we're recording this. And so I'm like I'm in I'm now getting to the point where people have very strong opinions on the presidents we're studying and the events of their presidencies >> based on >> really let's be honest based on who their parents are voting for most likely because these are high school students right >> so >> do you let that discussion happen within class? Yes, I do >> really. >> I let that discussion happen. But the rules are there to we don't belittle each other. We don't belittle people who aren't here. >> And so let's speak on the merits of the actions, not on the character of the person doing it. >> Yeah. And my big thing is I want to get through all of US history without my students knowing who I vote for >> because my goal is is never been even to convince the students on one side of the political spectrum or the other, but for them to have solid understanding of why they're choosing >> Yeah. >> to support one candidate over the other. Yeah, I'd >> rather have I don't care if you're voting Republican, Democrat, or a third party, or don't vote at all, but be informed about the decisions that you're making and don't just go along with what you hear from whatever your community is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To to think independently and and like you just said, to be able to appreciate and to hear out the other side. >> Absolutely. that that if we can do that, if I can have my students talking about why they think that, you know, this president is the best president and another group disagree >> and they can have a conversation with each other >> that doesn't involve, well, you're stupid. No, you're stupid. Yeah. >> But be like, all right, well, I totally understand that. >> To just devolve into insults at >> Right. No, that's that's that's firmly, especially with some of more of my story. It's like we don't allow bullying, name calling, any of that stuff in our conversations. That is that's like the one thing that we don't allow. You can completely disagree with me. I tell them all the time when they're like writing an essay. I'm like, >> I have an opinion on, >> you know, the motive of motivation of this one character in a book. >> Um, you may completely disagree with me. give me the evidence >> that supports your view and you're gonna get a grade just as high as if you had the same exact opinion that I did. >> Yeah. >> But think it through and use your reason and logic. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Yeah. >> That's an incredible skill to have. So, going back to um you in in school, you're now in youth group. Um living in this same house. Um kind of kind of take us from there. We're we're into high school now. Yeah. >> Right. And so, um, yeah, continue that story. >> Yeah. So, in high school is when, uh, my parents fighting got worse and worse. Um, things just escalated >> and would get to a point where >> my dad would move out for like 6 months and like they had they split up and then they'd get back together and they'd split up again. And so, it was always this >> unknown of what's going to happen. Mh. >> Um, and during that time, yeah, it was just like you'd see, okay, oh, dad's going to come back. Okay, great. What's going to be different this time? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so, and sometimes it was easier when they were split up and sometimes it was easier when they were back together, but there was this >> um unknown and there it was this constant like stress and worry about what what's the emotions going to be in this house? How's it going to feel coming home? >> Yeah. >> Um, and that >> made me lean more towards my friends and >> uh relationships and and work towards like I don't want that >> in the future. I don't want that for you know what >> my kids would see or >> in my relationship in the future. And so like even in high school I was already thinking about those kinds of things. It's like how is this what am I learning from this to take so I don't do the same mistakes? >> Yeah. >> Um and so when like I met I've actually known my wife for >> like almost my whole life. >> Yeah. >> Uh we met when I was I think four and she was two. >> Wa. >> We've known each other. Yes. So they lived in the house >> from church community. They lived in the neighborhood. It was really, it's not the girl next door, but the girl on the back side of the fence. So, basically, yeah, we shared a backyard fence. >> And uh because we were all around the same age, like my my my wife right now is the same age as my younger sister. >> Um and so it was like literally like my mom would call and be like, "Hey, I got to run to the store. Can you watch the kids?" And would literally lift us up and just set us in our backyard. And and we did that back and forth. Yeah. >> And so I've known each other for a long time, but we really started hanging out as friends again once we were in high school. >> So we weren't really close friends. >> Um but the fun thing is neither of us were supposed to go to the high school we went to and we both ended up transferring to that school and ended up being in school together. >> And so we started hanging out, we were just friends. Um but even when we started then like realizing there was something more than just this friendship happening. Um, that was at the same time I'm watching this whole thing go on with my dad. >> Yeah. >> And my mom. >> Yeah. >> And she's dealing with the same issues in her house with her mom and her stepdad constantly fighting back and forth. It was like, so we saw what it would look like to have an unhealthy relationship and we wanted something more. So >> yeah, >> in the midst of all this, we decided we're just going to get married. And we got married really young, >> really. So I was 21 and my wife was 19 when we got married. >> Yeah. >> And I mean >> for my generation that's extremely young. I mean it's it's normal if you look at my parents' generation or my grandparents' generation. But >> even even in a evangelical Christian circle it's young. >> Yeah. >> It's really young. >> But that's why one of the things that we were we saw is we saw what was going on with our parents and we're like we don't want that for us. So, >> because are you guys all still at this time involved in church? >> Um, yes. I had actually moved churches by then. Okay. I had gone to a different church and um when I was at this new church um got involved in the college uh ministry cuz I was 18 when I left. I left during right after I graduated high school. I went to a new church. >> Yeah. >> And that's right at the same time I started dating uh Adrien, my wife. And so she started coming to the church too cuz she had been bouncing from church to church and just checking things out and she just she followed me over there and we fell in love with that church >> and um so yeah our like whole dating was done >> in the context of our church and our college age group. So all of our friends >> were in that college and young adult age. >> Yeah. >> So that was the other thing too. It's like most of the college and young adult were definitely more the young adults. So, here I am. I'm like 19 years old in the college group and my best friend is 27. Yeah. >> And all of my friends are, you know, late 20s when I'm 19. >> Yeah. >> So, we we they were already married. We saw what healthy marriages could look like and we're like, why are we waiting? Let's just let's get married. Let's do this. >> Yeah. I'm I'm I think just throughout this whole this whole thing um I I just think that there's so many uh similarities honestly like I can just relate to you on on a lot of these different things um in you know being raised in church and right when you're 18 you're like all right I need to go and kind of spread my wings a little bit and have my own church community. Um, and then dating right around there and getting married real quick is just like I'm I'm right there with you and I'm I'm in this story. So, >> um, >> I mean, you guys you guys get married, you're 21 and 19. >> Mhm. >> And I mean, what what is that like? You guys go into marriage with not so healthy examples, >> right? >> Right. I mean, what was that what was that like so young getting into that, too? Well, we had to find good examples. And so, like I mentioned, like all of our friends when we're newly married are uh you know, older than us, like maybe 8 to 10 years older than us. >> Um that was our that was our friend group. We were the young ones that were tagging along. But >> we did see in the church >> really good role models of what a marriage could be. But I will say that like we've my wife and I have had this discussion on like we got married way young and >> in most I mean we we've had this conversation that it's like without a doubt we would still want to be married to each other like that's not a problem >> but if there was a way that we could have waited a little bit longer till we had a little bit more maturity a little bit more life under our belts and known >> really more like if I had had the time to discover who I was on my own and my wife has time to discover who she was on her own. >> We feel like it definitely would have made it a stronger marriage down the road when we did get married because we did have our ups and downs and and everything. But >> yeah, >> um >> we still wouldn't change >> the fact that we would be married. We just think that if we had if we had had the opportunities, >> but due to just life situation, it was almost a like this is our way out of all the problems >> that that that we're seeing around us. If we get married, it solves a lot of the problems. >> Yeah. >> And so we did definitely go into it um as marriage is going to be the solution >> to our problems. >> Was it? >> No. >> Yeah. No, it wasn't the the solution. Um because marriage brings its own set of issues, its own set of problems that because we had just used it really at first as an escape from our problems, we hadn't learned to deal with problems when they come up. >> And so now you guys both just enter into marriage with >> with the problems that we already have. We're bringing them together and now we have more problems that are being created because of that. >> Yeah. But like I said, in the end, we know we would have still been married. It just would have looked a little different. >> Yeah. Lauren and I have had a a similar discussion more so just where I make the observation of like I I proposed to Lauren when I was 19 and she was 17 and we got married at 18 and 20. And I think about that and I'm like, man, if I had I mean, we teach some kids that are almost 18 now. Some of them are that it's just like, >> dude, there's no way you're even close to ready. >> I I I it blows my mind when I look at the seniors and think, >> seriously, you're 18. My wife was married a year older that you there's no way. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But then you look and see it's like it worked. >> Yeah. But it does bring and create its own set of problems. >> And I I think about if now I was standing in front of myself as a 19-year-old who was stoked to propose and just get into marriage and all these kind of things. Would I go, "Hey, slow down." >> I don't know. You know, it's really interesting. I I I and I'm I'm sure that it's a mutual feeling as well that it's like it's not regret, not at all. >> It's it's hindsight 2020 kind of thing, you know. >> Um and so you guys get married, you get into this um you guys like every marriage does, especially in the beginning too. It's you you have those ups and downs and everything. >> I mean, we were both in college still, so we're like we're trying >> What were you What were you studying in college? I was actually studying uh biology. >> Really? >> Yeah. My uh my wife was studying music. I was studying biology. >> I didn't know that. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> So, we were both at Cal State Long Beach and living in a one-bedroom uh condo in Long Beach and both of us working two to three jobs to be able to afford the rent and every all of our expenses and pay for school. M >> um and so it was it was >> it was a challenge for sure. >> Did you guys end up both graduating with those degrees? >> No, neither of us graduated. >> Neither of you graduated. >> Not then. Not then. That was a we had a a a big change that took place um >> that was related towards missions >> really >> and that radically changed the direction of our lives for a while. Um we've gone back, we both went back um much later and got degrees and while she had she was studying the arts and I was in the science, she now has the degree in science and I have mine and as a bachelor of arts >> really. Yeah. Yeah. So I I was not that far away like I was like six classes away from finishing. >> Yeah. >> When we pivoted and changed the direction of our life. >> That sounds like a pivot. >> Yeah. That's a major pivot. And Adrien, she had probably another year and a half, two years still to go. >> But um when we went back to school, I went into history. >> Mhm. >> Cuz that became a huge passion of mine. >> Yeah. >> And she went into health education and health promotion. So she has a bachelor's of science degree in health education and health promotion. And I've got a bachelor's of arts in history with the focus on US history. >> Wow. >> So couple of big pivots there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. I mean, can we can we talk for just a little while about that? Um, I mean, you guys kind of feel this this calling into missions. What What was that? >> Um, so it started actually as my wife wanted to take a break from Cal State Long Beach. It was just getting to be too much >> and she wanted to know more of the Bible. She had grown up in a home that at first it they didn't go to church. M >> um they get saved one by one in the family by going to to hear Greg Lorie teach on Monday nights at Costa >> Mesa. >> And Adrien was the last one in the family >> to to get saved. And so she's like, you know, I didn't grow up knowing the Bible like you know, you did >> going to church four days a week, four times a week. >> I want to know more. And so she enrolled at a Bible college and one of the classes that you're required to take at this Bible college was a class on missions. >> And so she's taking it more just because this is a requirement. If I'm going to get a degree, I have to take this class. >> And um in the missions class um who was taught it which was taught by one of the pastors at our church who had >> Yeah. who had a heart for missions. Hardcore heart for missions. he had invited some friends to come and and share their experience. And so they they these two guys come and they start telling their experience of what life was like in Uganda when they lived there >> and uh in a refugee camp >> and you know I know you you know one of them very well who it is >> really. >> So Rob Douglas was the one that came and spoke and and his buddy Dave Zavala. >> Yeah. >> Um so >> I haven't had I haven't had Rob on the podcast yet but one day I you know he's going to have >> you're going to be here for a couple of hours recording with him. >> Yeah. Part one, part two, part three with them with one sitting. He'll just go for it. >> Yeah. >> Um but they came and shared about what was happening including uh a time where the rebel groups came or or at least thugs came and robbed the place and >> people ended up getting shot and all this stuff. And my wife comes home from hearing this experience and it's like I want to go to Africa. And I'm like, "Whoa, hold on here. Wait a minute. >> Oh, man. >> What are you talking about?" >> Yeah. >> Um, and so she tells me all the stories and I'm like, "Well, okay." I mean, I've always I I had spent my whole high school years going down to Mexico on mission trips for the weekend. >> Uh, you know, weekend long trips down to a a school and an orphanage for deaf children in Mexico. I was like, "All right, let's do this. Let's find out about it." So we contacted the organization these guys were with and they said you know Uganda if you haven't had experience overseas right now this is not a place that is easy to transition into >> you should check out our trip to Kenya first >> and go to the go to Nairobi and if if that works out then next year come to Uganda. >> Yeah. >> And we were both disappointed with that answer. We're like, but but we had kind of started feeling like we wanted to go to Uganda. >> Yeah. >> But we said, "Okay, we'll do it." So, we take a trip to to Nairobi. >> Just a short-term trip to >> Yeah. two week trip. Two week trip with the group. We're going to go work at an orphanage. And I have to tell you that in all the experiences that I've had of short-term mission trips, leading trips, hosting trips, being on them myself, organizing them. >> Yeah. >> This was the absolute worst trip possible. Everything that could go wrong went wrong. really. >> It was like I I've talked to the to the people who hosted us since then >> and and said, "Hey, guess what I found? I found a video that I put together of this whole trip. You guys want to see it?" And they're like, "No, >> we want no reminder whatsoever of the existence of that trip." >> Yeah. But out of that trip, four people on that trip went back out as full-time missionaries to Kenya. >> Really? >> Yes. >> How many people were on the trip? >> 15. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Wow. And you guys being two of them? >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, you go on this this trip. Now, in your mind, as somebody that that had never been to Kenya, was it a horrible trip? >> Yes. >> Yes. Okay. >> Yes. And no. Okay. So, here's here's part of the problem. We go to work at this orphanage, right? >> But it's the school holiday, so that almost all the kids we were supposed to be doing this VBS for like 300 kids. >> Yeah. >> 220 of them are at the coast. So, we have planned to do a VBS for 300 kids. >> Yeah. >> And there's 80 kids and they're all like the two and three and four year olds. >> So, it's like we didn't organize this. >> We didn't organize this well. what didn't flow well. Um we had um somebody who was taking some medicine to help with malaria that freaked out and had all the crazy side effects of like ultra vivid dreams and thinking that when she woke up that that was the dream because the dream was so realistic. >> We had somebody that literally freaked out and ran away and just went to the airport and got on a plane and left. >> One of the team members. >> Yes. >> What? We found her at the airport >> as she's getting ready to board a plane. >> I mean, it's kind of it's slightly imp it's slightly impressive >> that it is. >> Okay. All these things. Our host gets >> massively ill and and like can't preach anything and where he's going. Uh we have all of these things. We have somebody who gets >> somebody actually got nearly got assaulted on the trip. It was a disaster. Safety, logistics, all of it. >> But something happened during that trip and >> um a a a number of us end up going out. One, two of them go out as medical missionaries. One went back home, finished getting a doctor at finish getting her her her medical doctor. >> Yeah. >> And then goes out and is helping. And she'd go out for like 6 months, come back, go back for six months. And she did that for years. Wow. another one who went out as a dentist and he was out there for like six years and then my wife and I end up moving out there. We move we went a second trip this time to explore where where we were supposed to go. Um saw all these different ministries happening and found the one we wanted to work with >> and so we go back home and we start the fundraising >> uh and and so much time went into fundraising, putting out newsletters, >> creating a care team to help support us. And like six months before we're supposed to go, that ministry goes, actually, we're pivoting. We're we're doing a different move and we're not going to have any more Americans come out and help. And so then we're like, we know we're called to go. >> Yeah. I know I'm called to go out to teach because by this time I'm already now a pastor and teaching at my church and know that this is what my I feel a call is on my life is to teach and equip pastors >> and they're saying we don't need you now. >> Wow. >> And I was like what am what are we going to do? And so we're talking with a friend of ours that's out there and they're like, "Well, have you ever thought about coming and working with us cuz we could use your help?" >> And that was what we did. Like 6 months later, we're out on the mission field. >> Wow. And how how old are you guys at this time? >> Uh 29, I think I was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. About 29. Okay. >> 29 and 27. So, >> yeah. >> So, you guys at this point have been married for 8 years? >> Yes. And we have two kids. Very young. >> You have two kids at this point, too? >> Yes. Josiah was born. He was when we left to go on the mission field, he was almost three and Christopher was one. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that that in my mind complicates as >> everything. >> Everything, right? It's wow. So you guys, you guys go into the mission field. You got two kids. Eight years into marriage, you're going for it. This whole thing happens. You guys still choose to make this pivot and you guys are in country now. >> Yes. >> And how long did you stay in Kenya? >> 7 and 1/2 years. >> Wow. So during that time, we get out there, we're going to help a a church that has a a Bible school that they're going through the entire Bible in two month in two years. >> In two months. That was >> not two months. >> In two years. >> So every every week that we'd have three times a week people would come and we would teach through a different book of the Bible on each night and go through like five or six chapters a night and teach them that. Wow. Um, and then so the goal was to train up a whole group, a whole generation of people who had known and studied the entirety of the Bible. >> Was it like was it was it like a school that um somebody would sign up for and get like a certificate at the end? >> Yeah, they was >> it wasn't like random people are coming in on these different Bible studies. >> No, it was it was like a program. >> Okay. Um, and we were coming in right towards the end of the first group who were graduating >> really. >> And uh, we helped finish out for about three months and we were like, "All right, that's awesome. Let's get the next group in." And nobody signed up. >> So now we're in Kenya. We're here to help with this Bible school. >> Wow. >> And now there's no students. >> And what do you do? >> Make another pivot. >> Yeah. And so I'm just like, well, we're called here. We're here at this church. I'm just going to keep being here on Sundays and do what I can do and study the language and yeah, try and find ways of of going and doing ministry and outreach and into the community to get more people to show up at church. And >> uh that's what we did for a while. Um, and then an opportunity came to teach at uh a Bible college outside of our our like denomination. >> Yeah. >> And it was something similar to what I was going out there to do, but these were all guys who were pastors already >> in in this Pentecostal church movement. Yeah. >> And they were all on scholarships. They were being supported by Americans and Canadians who were funding to get allow these guys to come in. >> Yeah. Same thing. These guys would come in for two weeks out of each month, get massive like in-depth from, you know, 9:00 in the morning till like 6:00 at night Bible study. They would just sit the whole time taking notes furiously as pastors would come in and teach. I >> I think the goal was again to go through as much of the Bible as we could in a two-year program. So, they'd come for two weeks, go back home and preach for those two those two weeks, then come back for the next month. >> Wow. Do you find this too? I mean, in the travels that I've been able to do and and being a teacher in the US and then also going out to these different um countries in in Africa and Asia and stuff, I'm I'm always so blown away by the attention span. >> It is unbelievable the attention span that non-Americans, non-Western Europeans have. >> I mean, the fastest that I have ever been able to teach. And the longest that I have ever been able to teach is in Uganda >> where people are just locked in for a three-hour music class where I'm moving at double the speed that I would move. >> Yeah. So with the help of a translator. >> Yeah. In one year, I taught through out of the 27 books of the New Testament, I taught through 20 of them, >> plus the minor prophets and Genesis and Exodus in one year >> world >> to these to these pastors who were then taking it and back to their churches and preaching >> and it was their attention span. They wanted more. They and they always had deep questions and they wanted to know and >> wow. So it was it was a fascinating time to go through. >> The school loved me being there cuz I was coming and teaching for free. >> Yeah. >> And they're like, "Yeah, keep here. Keep going. Keep going. Keep teach you. How many classes you want to teach this time?" So I was teaching two or three days a week having to study and prep for basically nine hours of Bible teaching every week and three different books at a time. That was my full-time thing. >> Yeah. Um, and so I did that for a year until the person who we were going out to help with the church is like, "Oh, by the way, we're moving back to America in three months." And so we want you to take over the church. >> Yeah. >> And so then changes again and now I'm a pastor of a church, like the senior pastor of a church. >> Yeah. with all that that entails with, you know, when you've got a small church and you're a church planner, you're the senior pastor, the secretary, the uh the the the treasurer, >> the uh you're you're all of it. >> You're the counselor, you're the groundskeeper, you're doing and so that was what we did for a while. And and so we were we were just helping uh help this church. >> Yeah. And in in those 7 and 1/2 years, did you um did did you pick up a lot of the language? >> I picked up some. The problem is my brain only has room for about a language about 1.3 languages. >> Yeah. >> So, uh because I had already known some some Spanish. >> Yeah. >> Um I kept mixing both the English, the Swahili, and Spanish together. >> Yeah. And they still to this day uh when I try and talk in Spanish to people often times swuahili comes out instead. >> Really? >> Yes. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I asked somebody if they wanted some water and I you know and I I used swuahili and Spanish in the same sentence and I was like >> yeah awa not maji awa you know. I'm like oh my gosh. But yeah, so but in Kenya, especially in Nairobi, >> uh English is a national language and so I could get by in Nairobi itself just with English. >> But then when you're teaching through the Bible, are you always having a translator? >> I started doing that except at one of the schools that I was teaching at where everybody there spoke English well enough. >> Yeah. But um at the church, most people knew English well enough that I didn't need it, but I didn't want to limit us to just the English speakers. >> Yeah. >> And so we had one of uh we had somebody who came in and was a translator. >> And I always joked that um his translation was always better than what I originally had. >> Yeah. >> And he always joked that, "Oh, don't worry, I'm not changing it. I'm just seasoning it with a little salt is what he said." Um because it was more thought forought translation. I'd give a whole point and then he would translate that instead of like sentence by sentence. >> Really? >> Yeah. So it was more >> like so I could use my heart language of English >> and he would find ways of not just translating exactly what I said but explaining it the way that a Swahili >> speaker would understand the best in that heart language. >> Yeah. >> And it worked really well. And so eventually we uh handed the church over and he became the senior pastor. Really >> and I stayed on for a little bit to just help make sure that the church was flowing and doing everything. >> Yeah. >> And and every time they'd come to me and oh pastor, what about this? Oh, no. He's he's pastor. I'm I'm one of the pastors, but he's that's the guy you want to talk to. >> Yeah. >> Wow. And and and then finally we realized though that our being there was holding them back in some ways >> because I was realizing like they still see us connected as the United States. And so like >> we were still the paying the rent of the church. And I was like I'm going to step back and see what happens. And and >> God did the number on that on that church. And then as soon as we left pastor was like guys we got to step up. >> Yeah. We can't rely on it. If we're going to have a church, we got to do this and make it our church. >> And the church grew even more. >> So, >> when we were gone. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, >> but I mean that's a that's a big decision, too. I mean, it's it's I feel like every other sentence that's coming out right now is this giant pivot that's that's happening. >> That that is I think the defining characteristic of my life is pivoting. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, you guys are in country now. You you have a third kid too, right? >> Yeah. My my uh my next son, Benjamin, was born in Kenya, so he's got a birth certificate from Kenya. And then also the coolest birth certificates you can find for American citizens are the certificate of a US citizen born abroad. >> They are like so cool looking and it's got all the security features. Yeah. Because it means you're a US citizen. It's got that's documentation. Yeah. Right. So they have to make it super secure, which makes it so cool to look at. But yeah, so our son is is born there and then we felt that this family still wasn't complete. >> We've got three boys and we're like, we're not done though. >> And that's when we had already talked about, we had been planning. We It It's so fun how God works out because we had even said, "What would our ideal be?" Our ideal would be to have three boys and then adopt. >> That's what we said when we were first married. 21 and 20, you know, 21 and 19 year olds talking about what the dream would be. >> Three boys and then let's start adopting. >> And we had our three boys. >> Yeah. >> And so we're like, okay, I think this is time. And so we started praying about it and started looking at the orphanages there in in Nairobi and the surrounding area >> and God directed us to this one specific orphanage and we went out and visited. It was outside of Nairobi. Went out just to visit >> and it became very clear who God had us there for. M >> and so we started pursuing adopting a a young boy named Silas. >> M >> u who we knew going in had some health issues. >> Yeah, >> we knew going in um he was born with hydrophilis >> uh which is water on the brain and uh due to his situation he would been left at the hospital by his parents. Wow. >> Um for months before he actually got treatment. >> And so all that they were able to do in this really rural hospital was just kind of help move him a little bit. And so traditional hydrophilis if you're having your baby and you're holding it creates a really kind of big wide shaped head. His instead because he was just being turned from side to side was very narrow and very tall. Like his all the pressure was forcing the plates in his head to kind of go up. So, he had a very interesting shaped head, but we felt something about him. We just loved his his personality. Um, he was so friendly and kind and loving. >> How how old was he at this point? >> Three. >> Okay. And had he um, >> you know, I I think it's it's one of those things, too, even just to to give a little context as well. I mean, you know about Douggee, our our son, and and that he's has a lot of brain abnormalities and those kind of things. And so, um, >> you know, we've dealt with developmental delay with him for his whole life. He's about to turn two, >> um, and all that, but I mean, when you, uh, met Silas when he's three, um, I mean, is he, is he functioning fully? Like, has he developed at this point? >> Yes. Um, they were able to get a shunt in >> Oh, really? Um, yeah, that was really what he needed in >> Kenya. >> Yes. And that was what he needed when he was born. >> But the way that medical care works there is you got to pay for it first. >> There's no billing after. >> Yeah. >> And since the family left, nobody would pay >> literally the $17 to buy the shunt >> to put in him until somebody saw him after 6 months in the hospital and was like, I will pay that. >> Yeah. and then found a doctor who was willing to do the surgery and was willing to do it for really cheap and and covered it. And so then he was then placed in in the orphanage, but because of the shape of his head and how tall it was, he had a lot of problems early on with like he couldn't hold his own head up. >> Yeah. >> He couldn't sit up without help until he was much older. >> But by the time that he's three, he is able to walk. He does have uh you know he's he is talking. >> Yeah. >> Um it's limited. >> Yeah. >> But it's not so far off the scale that it's a big concern. >> Yeah. >> He just has, >> you know, some issues because of the hydrophilis. >> Yeah. >> So, um >> like Yeah. So, there's there's it's not as as extreme in that way, but there was some developmental setbacks, >> but it was something we could work with. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and so we start the process and their big thing was if you want to adopt and you're a foreigner, you don't get to pick. >> They're going to give you a child. >> But we also knew that if we had said we want to work with this orphanage >> and we're open to a child with special needs, the chances were more likely that this was the one that would be placed with us. So when we told our agency, we want to adopt, we want to work with this uh orphanage and we're open to special needs, they looked at us and they were like, you know what particular kid, don't you? And we were like, yes. They're like, who is it? And we told them and they looked into the case and they're like, really? >> Okay. Yeah, >> let's do this. >> And so he's placed in our home and the process is supposed to be 6 months in the home, then you can go to court and finalize the adoption. Mhm. >> And so during those 6 months, I was already like, "All right, we're going to have the whole plan. We'll get this taken care of. We'll bring him back to the States as soon as we get a visa for him and we'll get him checked out by the leading hospital hydrophilis. I already knew where we were going. >> All this stuff." And due to internal corruption in Kenya, as soon as he's placed a week into the placement, the government puts a hold on all foreign adoptions. If we had waited one more week, he wouldn't have been placed with us. But because he's placed with us, we are his foster parents. >> Yeah. But they won't allow us to go through the process of actually moving forward with full adoption >> until this whole scandal thing is over. >> Yeah. >> And it was a government scandal. It was involving all the way up to the vice president and other leading members of the cabinet and everything. >> Wow. >> A scam to make money off of >> overseas adoptions. >> Yeah. >> And so he's in our house and we can't move forward with getting him the best possible care we can. We have to stick with what we can find in Kenya. We can't get a visa for him to even go and visit. So that limits us being able to leave. Like my sister gets married during this time. >> I'm able to go, but the rest of the family has to stay. My wife goes and visits her grandmother and helps her her grandmother move and and and I stay back with the kids because we couldn't leave. We had to stay. >> Wow. Jonathan. >> Yeah. And so the care that we had when we were there, we took him to the best hospital we could in Kenya. >> Mhm. >> And had them had a scan. And they like, "All right, so these are the warning signs with somebody with hydrophilis, especially with this kind of a structure going on in the in the head. >> This is what you need to look out for." >> And they give us the the full All right. if he starts complaining about headaches, that could be increased pressure in in the brain. Um these kinds of things to just look out for. And so we take him home and we're like, "All right, we'll just keep our eye on those things." >> Yeah. >> And we go through just life with now four boys. >> And we had a really small house >> with four young boys at this point. Now, we're talking we had a four-year-old, a 5-year-old, a seven-year-old, and an 8-year-old. >> Luckily, we had a big yard and we could let the kids go and just go run and explore. So, my kids got this great experience of not only living in another culture, but we were living outside of Nairobi where it was safer. Yeah. >> But like we'd go on hikes just through our backyard and be like, "Oh, guys, watch out. The baboons are coming." Yeah. Hey guys, look. There's a hyena. >> Wow. >> Oh, watch out for the buffalo. You know, and we'd go explore down in the water and find the turtles that were down in the water and and and just have an amazing experience. >> Yeah. >> Of growing up and and life, you know, it's like it was such a fun place to be. >> Yeah. My wife was uh was out running all the time and our street was used by the Kenyan National Olympic Marathon runners as a training spot. So all the guys that win all the marathons. >> Yeah. >> She was out running and they'd be running past her going, "Keep it up, mama. You can do it, mama." As they're running and and Yeah. So she, you know, we joke that she would run and train with the marathoners in Kenya. I mean, these guys that she was running out on the same on the road with went on to win like the New York Marathon, the Boston Marathon, and the Olympics. And >> wow, >> that's it's a crazy experience >> of life out there. >> Yeah. >> Um, so that was that was a huge moment for us of just like this is >> like the best possible experience that we could have >> until the headache started >> in our son. And so Silas started having these terrible headaches to the point where it wasn't just like, "Oh, I've got a headache," but it'd be like screaming. >> And so it's like he had one that was that bad and we're like, "Okay, go lay down." Well, that was weird. Is that is that it? I think that might be it. He was fine the next day. I'm being like, "I'm fine." I was like, "Okay, we're okay." >> Day three has another one that bad. >> And so we're like, "All right, that's it. We got to get him checked out. So, the next day, he's got another headache. We take him out to the hospital again, and it's like a three-hour drive to this hospital, the best one that in in East Africa for hydrophilis cases, >> and they do a scan, and there's some major things going on in there. >> Um, you they could tell that the pressure was high, the brain was actually pushing on the on the skull so much that it was actually deforming the interior of the skull. M. >> And so they're like, "Can you come back in two days? We want to actually put in a probe in there to see what the pressure is at and see if the shunt's not working or what's going on." Um so that we can figure out a solution to what can we do to help him. >> Yeah. >> Because we knew that if we got him to the States, we would have been able to have reconstructive surgery. It would have put relieved a lot of >> even the possibility of having pressure. It would have been a crazy procedure. >> Yeah. >> I mean, they literally break the skull into a bunch of pieces, rearrange the pieces to a more normal head shape, >> and then stitch it all back up. But it's like >> we were seeing the befores and afters, and we're like, "Oh my gosh, this is this is it, right? But we can't take him out of the country." >> So, we go and they do this surgery. They put in the the probe to see what the pressure is. And we're like, nobody's giving us information on what's happening, how bad is it, what do these numbers mean. >> Yeah. >> And this is internet's bad. So, we can't really look things up and figure out what's happening. >> There's no chatbt at this time. No, there's no like, hey, what's a normal pressure in the in in the interior of the brain and >> and this um and he's having more headaches, more headaches while they're observing the pressure. >> All of a sudden, he has a seizure and he stops breathing >> and his heart stops and then nurses come rushing in and they start doing CPR. >> While you guys are at the hospital, this happens. at the hospital still >> and they rush him off and about an hour later they come out and they're like, "All right, he's stable. His heart's beating again, but he's hooked up to machines to help with breathing >> and everything. You guys can go in and see." >> And the numbers on the monitor kept going up >> and still nobody is telling us what's what do these numbers mean? >> Yeah. and they they're doing everything they can, all the everything that they have to uh offer to try and bring the pressure down. >> Um, >> and we finally had to go and we had a friend that lived like literally 2 minutes from the hospital, like across the street from the hospital. So, we go and we crash at his house and >> we come back the next day and there's no improvement. In fact, the numbers getting higher and higher again. Which again at at this at this point the probe is in his head and so they're they're monitoring the pressure. >> They're monitoring the pressure from the inside. >> So it's like a blood pressure but the pressure of the the the fluid in the inner cranial fluids. >> Yeah. And we're seeing these numbers and it's like I mean I to explain it now we just like within the last month really fully understood how bad it was because my wife had another pivot and she's in nursing school. >> Yeah. >> So she's had the health education and health promotion degree and they start studying the brain and we're seeing what normal numbers are. >> Yeah. And it made her think what were what what do we go through and the normal intercranial pressure it's measured in uh milligrams of mercury just like you know our blood pressure is. >> Yeah. >> Normal is 15. >> At 40 you reach a point where you're having permanent brain damage. >> And his numbers were over 75 up to 100. But nobody was willing to tell us what that meant. >> Yeah. >> Nobody was going to te to say this means that he's is going to have permanent brain damage. >> Yeah. >> They just are like, "Oh, yes. It's high. It needs to come down. It wasn't going to come down." Mhm. >> And in that culture, nobody wanted to be the one to have to say it's not going to >> Yeah. >> So finally it took a missionary doctor who was a Canadian guy who came and was talking with us and basically was like he's not going to come out of this. >> The chances of him coming out are are almost none. And I finally am asked him. And I'm like, even if he does, even if the pressure comes down, >> Yeah. >> is he going to be there or is this past the point? And he goes, "It's past the point." >> Yeah. >> So, we had to make that decision. >> Yeah. >> Of what do we do now? >> And had to make the decision to take him off of the life support. >> Wow. >> So, he'd been in our home for 2 years. >> Mhm. and was just as much one of our sons as the three that we had, you know, naturally. >> Yeah. >> And having to make that choice of taking your child off of life support >> is without a doubt the hardest decision that we ever had to make. >> Yeah. >> Even though we knew it was the right decision. >> Yeah. It would be a life if there was any life at all. It would be a life of suffering and pain >> if there was even a chance of it. >> Yeah. >> It was a difficult decision. I mean >> that's there's no words. >> We've had we've had to make that call since then for other people in our family >> really. >> But it's never been as hard >> Yeah. as when it's your child. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We had to make that decision with my mom when she passed away >> and that was difficult. >> But not as difficult as this. >> Yeah. I can't even imagine Jonathan. >> Yeah. >> I There's two things with this. What I would love to dive into right now >> would be talking with you, I mean losing a child has to be the most I mean I mean pivotal questioning everything kind of moment. And I I I really would love to dive into like what got you through that and like how did you you know I know that there might not be these these words that are like describing how you're able to keep standing during those days. >> Yeah. But um I also know that it's 6:15 and you got to be somewhere in 25 minutes. >> I can give a couple I can give a short answers for it and then maybe come back for >> and so I I really I really would love if if you're open to it to do a follow-up episode. >> Absolutely. kind of a part two on a lot of this talking more so from this point this huge pivot that happens in your life and in your family >> and I'm sure in I mean affecting every area of your life and of your worldview and of all of these kind of things. Um, and in part two of this getting to talk about what what the not not resolve cuz I'm sure it it doesn't resolve. >> You find new normals. >> You find new but it doesn't it those don't come easy. >> Yeah. >> It takes a long time. >> Yeah. And the healing process I think it takes it takes a long time. M >> and so I think that uh another another whole episode of walking through what it's like and how do you answer the question a few months later when someone says oh how many kids do you have >> and how do you deal with the transitions that entails of this is also the time where we make the decision that it's time to head home from the mission field. So there's now movement again with that and and new work and new places and school for the kids and all of those transitions. How do you transition with all of those things >> without just giving up? >> Yeah. I mean it's it it is truly a a pivot or die moment where >> absolutely >> it's you have this giant change this void this thing that is has happened and you either have a and I mean we remember this with with when we found out about Doug and everything too and what his life was going to be. It's a it's a pivot and we will get through this or it's a conscious decision to get on the floor and curl up in a ball and die. >> I will say that sometimes getting down on the floor and curling up in a ball is part of the healing. >> Yeah. >> But it's that last part. >> Do you get back up >> or do you stay down? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, and the Bible talks about the righteous can may fall seven times but will rise up again. >> And I firmly believe that that doesn't just mean from, oh, I fell in sin and I'm back up, but is knocked down. >> Yeah. >> By life. >> Yeah. >> But you get back up and you go for it again. Well, I'm I'm really grateful, Jonathan, for your um your vulnerability and for um letting us into this story and and um just e even I know it can be um tough to go in through those details, right? But I I I mean I really think that it's um helping us to to understand the gravity of the situation >> and of of you know what you've you've gone through. So um really thank you so much for for sharing that with us and I'm really looking forward to uh getting to hear about um what the next chapters are like. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'll be I'm happy to share. >> Yeah. And um if you guys are in a place right now where you have experienced um death or loss in your family um and um or you're starting off in marriage and getting married young or you're in the mission field right now and you need support, we're here for you. Um, our comment section is here for you. Um, and um, reach out because you're not alone in this. And, um, even these experiences, you're not alone. >> Yeah. >> Um, and yeah, thank you guys. Jonathan, thank you so much. >> Absolutely. Um, I'm excited to have you on for part two and I I >> I'm going to learn >> quite a lot from that, I think. So, thank you so much for sharing. >> Absolutely. >> And we'll see you next time, part two. Jonathan Ferguson. Bye-bye.